Canadian Scholarship Trust

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svt
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Canadian Scholarship Trust

Post by svt »

I'm looking for info on Canadian Scholarship Trust (and the like). References would be appreciated with any comments. I have read the following topics:
http://financialwebring.org/forum/viewt ... 9a1eecf04d
http://financialwebring.org/forum/viewt ... 3ecf80d1d0 (See 1st response of Aug 22).
http://www.cst.org/portal/page?_pageid= ... ema=PORTAL (See 'Your Choice of Plans').

I see these issues (from CST website):
-loaded up front ($200/unit) - What constitutes a unit? How many units make up one RESP portfolio?
-are the enrollment fees paid back over the four years child is in school?
-if child does not attend PS educ. "may be able" to transfer up to 50k to RRSP, but must transfer to "Family Plan" first (assume this involves more fees). Also, does this include interest?
-no statement on website about not getting interest back, or losing unused funds to group

Are there any other resources on CST, other than company provided info, that you are aware of? I have read the OSC report (2004?), but mostly takes issue with sales practices.

The reason I am asking all this, is that a friend has put funds in CST and (as I have been doing a lot of reading for my own interest) I was looking for a critical analysis of CST, and plan to transfer to self-directed RESP. This will obviously bring penalties with early withdrawal.

Thx.
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Post by arthur »

Not sure if this is an RESP but under General a lot of good points.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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svt wrote:I'm looking for info on Canadian Scholarship Trust (and the like).
If you're not into it, run away, and open a self-directed or mutual fund plan at a bank. If you're invested in it already, you have to download the 100+ page prospectus, read it from cover to cover, and make sure you understand absolutely everything that is explained in it. If you don't, rely on an independent source to explain it to you. The same applies to all pooled plans.

I have a copy of the prospectus, but couldn't find an easy link at CST's website (they don't need it to be easy to find!).

Disclosure: I don't own RESPs with CST, I just researched it.
I see these issues (from CST website):
-loaded up front ($200/unit) - What constitutes a unit? How many units make up one RESP portfolio?
A unit is a commitment to buy ~$100/yr worth of RESP for the entire contribution period of a newborn. If your child is older, a unit is worth more than dough. The front load of $200/unit essentially means that your entire first 2 years of contribution is lost if you cancel (it mostly went to pay part of the sales organization). There are other fees that are added up. You decide how many units you want to invest, up to something like 10 units or so. When you cash out, you get $xxx per unit.
-are the enrollment fees paid back over the four years child is in school?
I believe so, without interest. Check the prospectus.
-if child does not attend PS educ. "may be able" to transfer up to 50k to RRSP, but must transfer to "Family Plan" first (assume this involves more fees). Also, does this include interest?
No. It only includes the contributions you made (units bought) MINUS all fees, including the enrollment fees mentionned above and a slew of other ones. The CESG and interest is forgone.
-no statement on website about not getting interest back, or losing unused funds to group
Why would they? It's better to avoid these statements and just hide them in the 100-page prospectus and complex methodology for repayment.
Are there any other resources on CST, other than company provided info, that you are aware of? I have read the OSC report (2004?), but mostly takes issue with sales practices.
The sales practices are one thing, the fact that the money gets into a blackhole is a more serious issue.
The reason I am asking all this, is that a friend has put funds in CST and (as I have been doing a lot of reading for my own interest) I was looking for a critical analysis of CST, and plan to transfer to self-directed RESP. This will obviously bring penalties with early withdrawal.

Thx.
Check this thread on Canadian Business forums. It was fresher in my mind back then:

http://forums.canadianbusiness.com/thre ... eadID=7043

It's a lengthy thread with a lot of discussion about RESPs in general, but it ends with a review of CST's fee structure and the potential monies you can lose.[/quote]

In 2006 elsewhere, I wrote:
thing, a quick browse through the CST prospectus (it's 106 pages!) show that in addition to this $2000 setup fee, you have to pay about 1% in "MER" in the form of depository charges (up to $10/yr), administration fee (0.5%), investment counsel fee (0.1 to 0.3%), annual trustee fee (0.015%), etc.

The returns in the various accounts seem to hover between 3% and 5% over the past 5 years, and I don't know if there are other layers of fees there.

The actual ROI is closer to 7% because of discretionary payments made by the fund from unclaimed amounts (i.e. churn and drop-outs). They write:

General Fund monies are used to supplement basic Education Assistance Payments on a discretionary basis.There is no set formula used to determine the amount of these discretionary payments and beneficiaries have no contractual right to these supplements.There can be no assurance that sufficient funds will be available in the General Fund or that the Foundation will exercise its discretion to supplement Education Assistance Payments in any givenyear

I still understand very little about their calculations, actual fees and return, and I have little interest in finding out. Again, those who stick to the end and attend 4-year university will get a decent return (which they could have obtained from other sources) while those who stop contributing too late, those who don't plan to study 4 years (i.e. a 3-year BA or a 2-year college diploma or a shorter private/accelerated program) will lose the most. That alone is the biggest rip-off, where 25% of what you're eligible for gets paid each year. Therefore, if you attend a 1-year diploma or a 4-month accelerated program, you're S.O.L. Non-pooled funds will unlock $5000 the first semester (it's legislated) and the rest before the start of the 2nd semester.

Their prospectus is also hard to navigate and understand without a complete reading.

It seems better than Heritage at first sight. Heritage is more restrictive in paying out the funds for sure (show receipts, etc.).
and then also wrote:
Ok. I had to do it, read the whole darn CST prospectus and crunch the numbers. Just out of curiosity!

Let’s say you were planning on investing $85.50 per month in an RESP for a newborn. Let’s assume you place this investment into a no-fee mutual fund account expected to yield a conservative and constant 6% after MER (assuming a MER of about .5% is included as would be the case for a collection of efunds). You’d have $39,193 in 18 years including the CESGs.

Now let’s compare that with the cost of buying 9 units in CST @ $9.50 per month and paying $200 per unit for enrolment. With 100% going towards enrolment until the first $100 is paid and 50% afterwards, we get into a situation where such RESP will now be worth only $34,380 after 18 years. It’s the equivalent of a SD RESP yielding 4.7%. This $1,800 enrolment fee is having the same effect as a reduction in growth of 1.3% per year for 18 years.

In addition, various fees are added on assets in management. They include an annual trust and custodian fee (0.01-0.015%), an investment counsel fee (0.1% to 0.3%) and an administration fee (0.5%). Let’s ballpark the total of these 3 fees to 0.75%, which contribute to reduce the return on investment (we’re down from 4.7% to 3.95%).

Now, let’s apply a $10 annual depository fee (for the privilege of depositing mandatory contributions to the RESP). It appears small, but on $1026 worth of annual contributions, it equates a 1% front-end, which also can be equated to a 0.1% drag on a 6% annual return. We’re now down from 3.95% to 3.85%.

To further reduce our return, let’s now say that all investments made on your behalf have to go in (large part) government bonds or (in small part) in corporate bonds. That now means that your 6% return assumptions are totally wrong. There is another 2% performance reduction because of this asset allocation model and our return on investment is now down from 3.85% to 1.85%.

So I’m now saying that for the benefit of belonging to this plan, you’ll get (at most) a more realistic return of 1.85% per year. Therefore, you’d withdraw your original contributions of $18,468 and expect a payout in the neighbourood of $26,054 minus $18,468 = $7,567 or $842 per unit in EAP. It probably should be rounded up to $900 to account for minimal compounding between the 1st and 4th year of withdrawal.

Looking at the prospectus, it shows that EAPs being paid lately are around $700 per year, making the total EAP closer to $2,800, of which 45% is either discretionary or due to attritions. It leaves about $1,261 for those starting to study in 2005. The difference between the $900 and the $1261 can likely be attributed to lower interest rates compared to rates seen through the 90s and 80s. A $1,261 EAP is the equivalent of a $29,808 SD RRSP ($1261 x 9 units + refund of $85.50 x 18 years x 12 months) or a 3.3% annual return. That's what you'd get if you opt out of the pooled plan because you don't plan on going to a 4-year program.

Once we re-include the discretionary amounts paid out of attributions (only payable if you remain in the pool), we’re talking about $43,668, which is the equivalent of about a 7% SD RRSP. To get that, you have to see interest rates similar to what we saw in the 80s and 90s, we have to rely on discretionary grants that will double your accumulated income, and a lot of continued attrition. Oh. You also have to make sure you register and complete a 4-year program, or you’ll be out of luck.

If you want my opinion, you should assume you’ll be closer to $26,000 (1.85%) than to $43,668 (7%) going forward. It’s a pretty big gamble to take, because you are assuming perfect conditions to get the 7% (80s/90s interest rates, absolute certainty to attend university, absolute certainty to chose a 4-year program, absolute certainty to complete all 4 years, lots of people dropping off the pooled plan, etc.).
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Post by svt »

Thanks for the response. I found the prospectus and am currently reading through.
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Post by George$ »

Some time ago my daughter-in-law signed a CST for a newborn. That day I did a careful Excel analysis and showed her what a bad deal it was. She was able to cancel the next day.

My general rule:
"If it's complex and there is a salesperson pushing it and if it sounds too good - run away from it as fast as you can."
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Post by queerasmoi »

I was enrolled in CST in the 1980s by my grandparents. At the time it was much more expensive to be a DIY investor and there were no government top-ups to education savings. Adding to which, my grandmother was in business selling the plans :) So I think it was a reasonable decision at the time.

But nowadays with cheap options like eFunds, or self-directed RESP accounts with no annual fee (Credential, E-Trade), and with the added flexibility in family RESP structures, I would totally go with a DIY approach.
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Post by scampbell »

Ellen Roseman recently wrote a couple of articles in her blog. The "comments" are interesting.

http://www.ellenroseman.com/?p=187
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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Daw: Simplified wording urged for scholarship trust plans - thestar.com
After a CSA investigation in 2003, regulators pressed marketers to stop misrepresenting fees, exaggerating the safety of investments, employing high-pressure sales tactics and calculating rates of return in an inconsistent manner. Yet families continued to complain they had been duped or treated unfairly by five marketing organizations that together manage more than $7.6 billion of families' education savings...
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

I realize this is an old topic but this CBC story, Why this Airdrie family regrets buying into a group RESP - CBC News, provides some caution that must be noted. Been there, done that and have the scars to prove it.
CBC wrote:Group RESPs are longterm investments that should only be purchased after reading the fine print in detail, says a Calgary financial advisor, after an Airdrie family spoke out about why they regret their decision.

Laurena Pollock said she and her husband just wanted to do what was best for their children's future when they opened a registered education savings plan, but now they can't move their money out of it without incurring heavy fees.

The mother of two said she wanted to transfer about $3,000 from an RESP she bought into through the Canadian Scholarship Trust (CST) in April 2013, and was surprised to learn it would cost around $2,000 in fees to do so.
We went through the same exercise many years ago. My father-in-law had purchased CST funds for our children's future post-secondary education. After he passed away we were reviewing the plans and the future contribution requirements and we stumbled upon their fee model, which is very front-end loaded.

We also recognized the tontine model that was being used then. I haven't looked since, so they may have changed their model. Essentially in our case, the way to receive the most benefit was to have others joining the plan in the same years to contribute for a number of years but not have their children attend post secondary school, so all their accumulated investment income would benefit our children. Although we were certain our children would get a post-secondary school education, this wasn't a risk worth taking.

We made the decision to terminate the plans and use other means to fund our children's post secondary education. Like many life lessons, there was a cost involved, but in hindsight "our education" was worthwhile. I hope it works out well for the family involved in the CBC article.
With a pooled RESP, Cork said a good chunk of the money you get out of it will depend on "how other members of the pool are acting."

"So, if a large number of kids don't continue on with their schooling, then the ones that do will actually receive a larger benefit," he said.

By contrast, he said individual RESPs have more flexibility and the returns depend wholly on the investment choices you make within it, although that can come with more risk.
I guess they haven't changed the model. Glad we recognized this early and only paid a relatively small amount for our "education" on this product.

From my experience, this last quoted section is very practical and good advice.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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Painful memories indeed. We started two plans in the early 80s.
Our first son received all 4 payments, although he hit a period of declining bond yields, and each year's payment was less than the previous year's.
Our second son didn't complete his post-secondary education in a manner that matched the rules of that time, and he only received 2 payments.

A significant advantage of today's self-directed plans is that you can re-direct the money if their paths don't match the rules of a CST plan.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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We enrolled our two boys about 10 years ago. We were new to Canada and didn't know about all the options; besides it seemed like a fair option given a very specific purpose and time when the money would be needed.

One of the boys was a year ahead at school, so we specifically asked whether it would cause any issues (in writing). We were told - "no issues; you can just request your payments when he goes to university". When time came we were told that requesting was indeed possible. And payment was OK. However they imposed a substantial penalty for "early withdrawal". We complained but didn't get very far. In the end we decided to wait until the policy "matures" and couldn't use the funds when they were needed. There will also be potential tax implications due to delay.

Bad deal, stay away.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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Figured we got 2-3% annualized for our contributions (12 years) with CST. They siphoned away half of the 20% that the government is matching. Bureaucratic pain to receive the installments. You can do better self-directed and have way more flexibility.
Plus, our CST agent sounded like a well-versed swindler: gave me the creeps.

Again, stay away.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

Post by queerasmoi »

My grandmother used to sell for CST back in the day. My sister and I had CST units. I think that in the 80s/90s it made a lot of sense because self-directed investment was just not very accessible and this was an easy way for family to contribute to a kid's future. But yeah it's not a very favourable option anymore.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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queerasmoi wrote:My grandmother used to sell for CST back in the day. My sister and I had CST units. I think that in the 80s/90s it made a lot of sense because self-directed investment was just not very accessible and this was an easy way for family to contribute to a kid's future. But yeah it's not a very favourable option anymore.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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In the news again ... Saving for your kids' education: A cautionary tale | CBC News
CBC article wrote:A representative of the foundation told Hendizadeh in an online chat that he would receive only $2,000 if he pulls out.

"This whole sales charge, I came to know about it two weeks ago," said Hendizadeh.

He says he now faces the prospect of losing $6,000 of his investment.

"This $6,000 doesn't make sense to me. I was told to go through the complaint, [the] 1-800 number," he said.

Peter Lewis, Canadian Scholarship Trust's vice-president of sales, says he could not comment on the specifics of the Hendizadeh matter but told CBC News he is proud of his company's transparency around the fees that it charges for all of its products, including group RESPs.

"We're very upfront about what those fees are and we try to very carefully explain to families that's one of the risks that you're going to take with this plan, is that you're locking into a schedule. And if it's not something you're comfortable with, then you shouldn't actually do that," said Lewis.
If they were very upfront about the fees why is the customer so surprised by them during the online chat?

It is very definitely buyer beware when thinking about using a Canadian Scholarship Trust for an RESP. Anyone who is considering using this plan MUST ABSOLUTELY understand their fee model before signing on the dotted line. They make the mutual fund industry with DSCs and high MERs look good.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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Peculiar_Investor wrote: 26 Aug 2019 08:41 In the news again ... Saving for your kids' education: A cautionary tale | CBC News
CBC article wrote:A representative of the foundation told Hendizadeh in an online chat that he would receive only $2,000 if he pulls out.

"This whole sales charge, I came to know about it two weeks ago," said Hendizadeh.

He says he now faces the prospect of losing $6,000 of his investment.

"This $6,000 doesn't make sense to me. I was told to go through the complaint, [the] 1-800 number," he said.

Peter Lewis, Canadian Scholarship Trust's vice-president of sales, says he could not comment on the specifics of the Hendizadeh matter but told CBC News he is proud of his company's transparency around the fees that it charges for all of its products, including group RESPs.

"We're very upfront about what those fees are and we try to very carefully explain to families that's one of the risks that you're going to take with this plan, is that you're locking into a schedule. And if it's not something you're comfortable with, then you shouldn't actually do that," said Lewis.
If they were very upfront about the fees why is the customer so surprised by them during the online chat?

It is very definitely buyer beware when thinking about using a Canadian Scholarship Trust for an RESP. Anyone who is considering using this plan MUST ABSOLUTELY understand their fee model before signing on the dotted line. They make the mutual fund industry with DSCs and high MERs look good.
It's the big problem about redemption fees. No one goes into an investment, that is intended to be there for 15 to 20 years with the intention or concern about redemptions in a few years. Even when the fees are disclosed (assuming they are) it rarely affects their decisions, since in their minds, they will not be affected by them. Because of this, they tend to not allocate space in their memories of such things. If they remembered or knew about them they probably would not have even gone through the process of planning a redemption, where they found out the hard way. Unfortuneately, that does not mean they were not told about them, at time of application, it just means that our memories have a selection process for the things that we think might affect us and not for every detail that one believes will only affect others. That is usually the case with redemption fees.

That is why you see very little competition on redemption fees. I remember when Investors Group went from a front end load model to a redemption fee model. They decided to use a 3% redemption fee, declining to zero in 3 years, if I recall. Every other competitor was at 6% to 7% declining to zero in 6 or 7 years with many still at 3.5% in the 6th year (they figured out what I am saying). IG thought they would be singled out as a strong and fair competitor but lets face it. If think you will redeem within 3 years, any redemption fee will keep you away from the investment and if you don't believe you will redeem for at least 10 years, any number appears to be irrelevant to you. IG still got their complaints, even at 3%. By the way, they also eventually figured this all out and changed their DSC schedule a few years ago to 6% declining to zero over 7 years.

I will also add that most dealerships these days are attempting to move away from the DSC model but it has not gone away completely.
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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OptsyEagle wrote: 26 Aug 2019 10:37 It's the big problem about redemption fees. No one goes into an investment, that is intended to be there for 15 to 20 years with the intention or concern about redemptions in a few years. Even when the fees are disclosed (assuming they are) it rarely affects their decisions, since in their minds, they will not be affected by them. Because of this, they tend to not allocate space in their memories of such things. If they remembered or knew about them they probably would not have even gone through the process of planning a redemption, where they found out the hard way. Unfortuneately, that does not mean they were not told about them, at time of application, it just means that our memories have a selection process for the things that we think might affect us and not for every detail that one believes will only affect others. That is usually the case with redemption fees.
Fair comments and well stated. But also part of the cautionary tale, predictions are hard, particular about the future. So make sure you understand the costs involved.

Given the fee levels and front-end loading that occurs with CST, it is important the buyers beware and fully understand what they are buying and the underlying costs they will be paying. That is one of the basic reasons that FWF exists, "Where Canadian Investors Meet for Financial Education and Empowerment".
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Re: Canadian Scholarship Trust

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Once again CST is in the news, Class-action lawsuit puts major group RESP providers under the microscope - The Globe and Mail
The Globe and Mail wrote:Group RESP providers require parents to commit to a certain number of shares, called units, upfront. Ms. Lonergan bought 25 and began contributing $208 a month. When her twins were born this year, she called CST again and opened plans for them, too. But when she and her husband became concerned about the returns and asked about transferring their children’s RESPs to another financial institution, they found out there was a major barrier to exiting.

By then, the couple had contributed a combined total of $10,800 to their children’s RESPs. Roughly $5,800 of it has gone toward the sales charges – the cost of opening the accounts – which are front-loaded, meaning parents must pay the majority of it off before they begin to actually contribute toward their children’s education. It’s also the amount they would lose if they transferred their plans elsewhere.
In the interest of fairness they contacted CST's CEO and he stated
The Globe and Mail wrote:CST chief operating officer Peter Lewis said in an e-mail to The Globe and Mail that over time it works out in parents’ favour, as the sales charge is coupled with a lower asset management fee. He said CST has compared the fees for an RESP holding units of the CST plan against one holding mutual funds, and found “the CST fees … are equivalent to mutual funds with a 1- to 1.5-per-cent [management expense ratio or MER].”

Clients who’ve made all their contributions and whose children collect all four education assistance payments when they go off to school are refunded half the sales charge, he added.
The problem is "over time it works out in the parents' favour" is part of the underlying problem of their structure.

It seems from my analysis, and from others quoted in the G&M article, that the only parents and their children that benefit are those that make made all their contributions and whose children collect all four education assistance payments. Otherwise those that exit early or whose children do not attend a qualifying post-secondary education program are the ones that subsidize CST and those other parents. That's the nature of the contract one between the parents and CST.

There are far better options for those parents who want to fund a Registered Education Savings Plan.
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