Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

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cardhu
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by cardhu »

No, I used my ordinary Cdn debit card, to draw from a ordinary Cdn$ chequing account.
The math is simple ... the amount actually withdrawn from the account, in CAD, was roughly 1.025x what the BOC closing rate for that day suggested it should be ... of course, its impossible to know the exact fee, because forex fluctuates during the day, and I don't know the exact time of day that TDCT processed the transaction. But its close enough. With debit, there is no $5 minimum, its a straight percentage. So for small amounts (I didn't need very much), debit is cheaper.

For larger amounts, I would use the Visa preload.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by 2 yen »

cardhu wrote:No, I used my ordinary Cdn debit card, to draw from a ordinary Cdn$ chequing account.
The math is simple ... the amount actually withdrawn from the account, in CAD, was roughly 1.025x what the BOC closing rate for that day suggested it should be ... of course, its impossible to know the exact fee, because forex fluctuates during the day, and I don't know the exact time of day that TDCT processed the transaction. But its close enough. With debit, there is no $5 minimum, its a straight percentage. So for small amounts (I didn't need very much), debit is cheaper.

For larger amounts, I would use the Visa preload.
Interesting. Thanks for the clarification. Being lazy, how would one determine at which point the preload is a better option?

Thanks!

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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by Spudd »

Based on my math, if you want $200 or more, the $5 Amazon fee is less. If you want less, then the debit card (assuming you also have one that lets you withdraw in foreign lands with no fee) is cheaper.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by pmj »

Don't forget that with a debit card withdrawal there are two potential fees, in addition to the 2.5% (most banks) FX vig - a charge that your own bank might levy for withdrawing from another bank's machine, and a charge that the other bank might levy on you as a non-customer. Somewhere in the process, someone has to pay for the convenience of cash withdrawals ...
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

There is also the Plus network fee for foreign ATM transactions. Some banks waive it but not all.
Remote ATM Fees
At the very least you will probably be charged the same transaction fee, if any, that your bank charges you when using another bank's ATM. However, many banks charge higher fees for international ATM withdrawals -- either a flat rate (typically $1 - $6) or a set percentage of your total withdrawal (usually 1 - 3 percent). Check with your bank before each trip abroad, as these fees can change often and without warning. To add insult to injury, you may also be charged a fee by the owner of the foreign ATM.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by Stan_W »

I withdrew 4000 pesos plus a 31 peso ATM fee in PV two weeks ago. The cost was 265.87, so the rate was 15.16 pesos per dollar. IIRC, the rate on xe.com was about 15.5.There was also a $5.00 charge from CIBC.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by 2 yen »

Tried 3 of the ATM's listed on the Visa ATM map and all 3 charge an ATM fee of anywhere from U.S. 2.50 to 3.50. I'm in the U.S. south.

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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by leoc2 »

I used the Visa ATM finder and Amazon Visa in France throughout February with no ATM fees. Log into Amazon Visa website and use the "Secure Correspondence" and ask for an explanation.

p.s. I take out the max amount of cash when completing the ATM transaction. Minimizes the # of cash advance fee.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by 2 yen »

leoc2 wrote:I used the Visa ATM finder and Amazon Visa in France throughout February with no ATM fees. Log into Amazon Visa website and use the "Secure Correspondence" and ask for an explanation.

p.s. I take out the max amount of cash when completing the ATM transaction. Minimizes the # of cash advance fee.
So, it would appear that fees at ATMs that do Visa withdrawals vary by country (and ATM) as to how much they charge. Best advice I can give is that if one needs $500 U.S., and if the machine will spit it out, go for it. The ATM fee and 1% ($5) charged by Amazon make this the cheapest route, especially in the U.S.

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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by bpither »

I have an "all Inclusive account" from TD - no $5 foreign withdrawal fee ... but the exchange rate is over 2.5%. I solve this by taking wads of cash to Budapest where we have an apartment and found an exchange place where the spread is around 1.5% over the Interbank rate. it's a ways from the tourist ghetto where the rates are usurious.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by newin96 »

Heading to Europe... spoke with several BMO personnel and they were adamant that there is no 2.5% incremental foreign exchange fee on bank debit withdrawals, that only applies to credit card withdrawals?
There is the $5 service fee per debit card withdrawal.
Primarily going to use our "no FX fee visa", and will update once we get back and "see" the actual exchange being charged (comparing the credit card exchange rate on purchases vs. cash withdrawal exchange rates).
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

Many holders of Chase noFX CC have done side-by-side transactions and verified that the rate difference for both debit and credit cards is exactly 2.5%. The bank employees are ignorant I think rather than fraudulent.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by Shakespeare »

How many pesos should I get with my bank card at an ATM next time I'm in MX (probably Dec at PV)?*

* There's a Scotia ATM at the top of the hill near the Royal Decamaron. In Los Cabos, the Scotia ATM is across the road from the RD.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by pmj »

https://www.bmo.com/pdf/Agreements_Bank ... anking.pdf
5) Foreign Currency Transactions The exchange rate for converting foreign currency transactions to Canadian dollars is the rate charged to us by Mastercard International on the date the transaction is posted to your account, plus 2.5% for purchases and minus 2.5% for refunds. For foreign currency transactions other than U.S. dollars, the amount is converted first to U.S. dollars and then to Canadian dollars.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by newin96 »

That's exactly what I quoted to each person I talked to at BMO. They were emphatic that this statement is for credit card transactions and not debit card withdrawals.

But I expect that they are incorrect.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

newin96 wrote: 30 May 2017 12:53 That's exactly what I quoted to each person I talked to at BMO. They were emphatic that this statement is for credit card transactions and not debit card withdrawals.

But I expect that they are incorrect.
The vig started to apply to debit cards 8-10 years ago. Until then, I would pay my bills from my Mexican bank and get cash using my debit card. After they implemented the FX, I started depositing C$ cheques and using their local tellers. I am sure they announced the change at the time. Here is what they say:
Your purchase will be debited immediately from your Canadian Dollar account. Included in the currency exchange cost will be a conversion fee which is calculated by adding an additional 250 basis points to the interbank U.S. Dollar exchange rate. For example, on a purchase of $10 US with an exchange rate of 1.3, the transaction amount will be $13.25 CDN ($10 x 1.325).
and the FX applies to all foreign currencies. This particular phrase was in a TD piece about use of foreign ATMs.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

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kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 11:00 Here is what they say:
Your purchase will be debited immediately from your Canadian Dollar account. Included in the currency exchange cost will be a conversion fee which is calculated by adding an additional 250 basis points to the interbank U.S. Dollar exchange rate. For example, on a purchase of $10 US with an exchange rate of 1.3, the transaction amount will be $13.25 CDN ($10 x 1.325).
and the FX applies to all foreign currencies. This particular phrase was in a TD piece about use of foreign ATMs.
To nitpick, the example is wrong.
2.5% is applied on the CDN amount, so it's $10 x 1.3 x 1.025 = $13.33
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

adrian2 wrote: 31 May 2017 12:48
kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 11:00 Here is what they say:
Your purchase will be debited immediately from your Canadian Dollar account. Included in the currency exchange cost will be a conversion fee which is calculated by adding an additional 250 basis points to the interbank U.S. Dollar exchange rate. For example, on a purchase of $10 US with an exchange rate of 1.3, the transaction amount will be $13.25 CDN ($10 x 1.325).
and the FX applies to all foreign currencies. This particular phrase was in a TD piece about use of foreign ATMs.
To nitpick, the example is wrong.
2.5% is applied on the CDN amount, so it's $10 x 1.3 x 1.025 = $13.33
and what they will quote is an exchange rate of 1.3325 which causes all the confusion even among some members here! Here are their references:
TD Legal Notes
TD Savings Account Legal Notes
TD Taking a trip advice
Greedy Rates Confirmation
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by adrian2 »

kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 14:22
adrian2 wrote: 31 May 2017 12:48
kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 11:00 Here is what they say:
and the FX applies to all foreign currencies. This particular phrase was in a TD piece about use of foreign ATMs.
To nitpick, the example is wrong.
2.5% is applied on the CDN amount, so it's $10 x 1.3 x 1.025 = $13.33
and what they will quote is an exchange rate of 1.3325 which causes all the confusion even among some members here! Here are their references:
TD Legal Notes
TD Savings Account Legal Notes
TD Taking a trip advice
Greedy Rates Confirmation
1.3325 = 1.3 x 1.025 (the number I wrote, rounded to dollars and cents)
1.3325 <> 1.3 + 0.025 (1.325 is the forex rate from your post I was replying to -- you're missing a digit)
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

Thanks adrian. Anything to improve the knowledge of our "wisdom" forum! The quote with the bad math was from TD. I am not sure whether you are correct or me. Anecdotal observations are that the official exchange rate is multiplied by 1.025. I was referring to the general case which would be much more than $10! In our case, more likely $1000 Canadian.

What I think is a real travesty is the number of travellers who are getting screwed by their banks because they do not understand what is going on.

BTW the Rogers Mastercard cashback offer of 4% is netted by the 2.5% so is really 1.5% which is good just not what people are led to believe! I talk to people who really believe that they are getting 4%! I might have to switch to it if they withdraw the amazon Chase card. I could always charge my Paygo cell phones to it for the full 4%.

But right now we are trying to reduce our CCs.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

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kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 17:54 BTW the Rogers Mastercard cashback offer of 4% is netted by the 2.5% so is really 1.5% which is good just not what people are led to believe! I talk to people who really believe that they are getting 4%! I might have to switch to it if they withdraw the amazon Chase card. I could always charge my Paygo cell phones to it for the full 4%.
I have little trust in Rogers maintaining card benefits as they are, in the long run.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by Quebec »

kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 17:54 (...) I might have to switch to it if they withdraw the amazon Chase card. (...)
Are there rumors to that effect?
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by pmj »

kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 17:54BTW the Rogers Mastercard cashback offer of 4% is netted by the 2.5% so is really 1.5% which is good just not what people are led to believe!
It's actually 1.6% cashback because the 4% is applied to the grossed-up C$ value of the purchase: http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/for ... rs#p590550
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by kcowan »

Quebec wrote: 01 Jun 2017 07:46
kcowan wrote: 31 May 2017 17:54 (...) I might have to switch to it if they withdraw the amazon Chase card. (...)
Are there rumors to that effect?
They are not approving new card holders.
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Re: Foreign ATM Withdrawals-Debit vs No FX Fee Credit cards

Post by Turkey1 »

Just back from 10 weeks in Europe, used the Amazon Visa card with no foreign conversion fee for almost all of my purchases.
For cash, I had the Amazon credit card in a credit balance, and used this at ATM machines, only fees paid on $514.00 Canadian was $5.14.
This is a great travel card!
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