to buy new or used car?
Re: to buy new or used car?
BTW is anyone loading up on VW shares. Maybe a great time to buy. Although limited public float as almost 75% privately held between Porsche and the Saudi boys.
As to the question of programmers, it could easily have been a case of an automobile engineer saying to the programmer, when these cars get tested they need to meet these standards. And it has to get this power ratio etc when you are driving it. Programmer codes it that way. the guys who quality control the emissions are happy and the auto engineers who test drive the power etc are happy. programmer gets a raise and moves on to next project.
Reminds me of what happened at one of the big accounting firms a few years ago. True story apparently but kept very hush obviously. Heard it from one of the former partners.
A coder was told, by a senior partner in charge of some IT project, in coding one of the programs that when column A was totaled that the number at the bottom of column B had to be the same as the number at the bottom of column A. (not exactly sure of the wording of his instructions but that was essentially it) So coder programmed it so that when column A and B were filled in the, column A was totaled up then the number at the bottom of column B was the taken from the bottom of column A. He obviously had no knowledge of accounting. It was never caught in any of the testing by the accountants. Obviously they were not checking against the computer for addition error when they tested it.
This particular program was used widely in this firm and it took almost 5 years before it was caught.
The trouble with specialization and poor instructions & assumptions
Anyone with any knowledge of accounting would know The program should have to total A and total B separately and raised a warning flag or show the discrepancy if the two numbers were different which is what the accountant meant.
As systems get more complex and specialized we may see more of this VW stuff.
Cheers
J
As to the question of programmers, it could easily have been a case of an automobile engineer saying to the programmer, when these cars get tested they need to meet these standards. And it has to get this power ratio etc when you are driving it. Programmer codes it that way. the guys who quality control the emissions are happy and the auto engineers who test drive the power etc are happy. programmer gets a raise and moves on to next project.
Reminds me of what happened at one of the big accounting firms a few years ago. True story apparently but kept very hush obviously. Heard it from one of the former partners.
A coder was told, by a senior partner in charge of some IT project, in coding one of the programs that when column A was totaled that the number at the bottom of column B had to be the same as the number at the bottom of column A. (not exactly sure of the wording of his instructions but that was essentially it) So coder programmed it so that when column A and B were filled in the, column A was totaled up then the number at the bottom of column B was the taken from the bottom of column A. He obviously had no knowledge of accounting. It was never caught in any of the testing by the accountants. Obviously they were not checking against the computer for addition error when they tested it.
This particular program was used widely in this firm and it took almost 5 years before it was caught.
The trouble with specialization and poor instructions & assumptions
Anyone with any knowledge of accounting would know The program should have to total A and total B separately and raised a warning flag or show the discrepancy if the two numbers were different which is what the accountant meant.
As systems get more complex and specialized we may see more of this VW stuff.
Cheers
J
Re: to buy new or used car?
Requiring that items be built to certain codes is an important step. But to be built they first have to be designed (engineered), and then there should be a process to confirm that they have actually been built to the relevant code. Who is responsible to confirm that? Is that not also an act of engineering?AltaRed wrote:They should not because moving stock can be in any jurisdiction at any time. I suspect the law permits rolling stock, once certified/approved in one jurisdiction (stamped where the engineer doing the designs resides), to be acceptable in every other jurisdiction. Think about marine vessels, train stock, 18 wheelers, airplanes, etc. All of them would be built to certain codes, e.g. ASME, DOT, etc that in itself provide assurrance of prudent design standards.pmj wrote:Do auto companies have to get their designs stamped for each province and state? If not, why not?
If I were to import a steel prefab building from Quebec, or any US state, or another jurisdiction that has engineering licensing like North America, and even though they would (presumably) be designed to recognized standards, no stamped design from any those place-of-origin engineers would be accepted here. Indeed it would be a violation of licensing legislation in Ontario (and just about every other jurisdiction) for any of those engineers to knowingly use their stamps in that manner.
Motor vehicles affect public safety to a much greater degree than do steel prefab buildings. Motor vehicles are clearly engineered artifacts. Although they appear to conform to demand-side legislation - "they may only be sold or registered here if they conform to a recognized standard", I am intrigued that they appear to by-pass the requirements of licensing legislation for their design and construction.
If a prefab building manufacturer/importer were to falsify a building design in a manner similar to VW's implementation of emission control, or Ford's design of Pinto fuel tanks, etc - the Ontario engineer responsible would face professional misconduct charges from PEO. Will there be professional misconduct charges against any engineer on account of VW's emission controls? What if there are no engineers that can be held liable? Should there be?
Peter
Patrick Hutber: Improvement means deterioration
Patrick Hutber: Improvement means deterioration
Re: to buy new or used car?
Don't know if there will ever be any professionals held accountable for this. There must have been a lot of people inside VW that knew what was going on. None of them blew the whistle. If a whistle blower had come forward right at the start, the damage would be much more contained.
Re: to buy new or used car?
Huge fines, lawsuits, millions of cars to fix, loss of market share... My guess is we will hear about governments jumping in and propping them up to save jobs. Could be a long time before they are profitable again.twa2w wrote:BTW is anyone loading up on VW shares. Maybe a great time to buy. Although limited public float as almost 75% privately held between Porsche and the Saudi boys.
J
Re: to buy new or used car?
I will be very disappointed if any low- or mid-level professionals are held accountable, while the ex-CEO retreats to a private island to enjoy his $30M pension. The guy was known as a control freak who paid attention to every little detail. Now he denies that he knew anything about the cheating. How believable is that?Insomniac wrote:Don't know if there will ever be any professionals held accountable for this.
Volkswagen CEO's History of Sweating the Details Now Haunts Him
Re: to buy new or used car?
If all these automakers are having to resort to shenanigans to pass increasingly stringent emissions tests, perhaps it's time to consider that the test standards are unachievably restrictive?
It certainly plays well in the media when a politician can claim that they've tightened emissions standards and thus reduced greenhouse gas contributions, but if the standards are simply not realistic, what are the automakers to do? Produce underpowered vehicles and lose market share to their competition? Or get "creative" with their emissions control units' software?
It certainly plays well in the media when a politician can claim that they've tightened emissions standards and thus reduced greenhouse gas contributions, but if the standards are simply not realistic, what are the automakers to do? Produce underpowered vehicles and lose market share to their competition? Or get "creative" with their emissions control units' software?
Re: to buy new or used car?
If some automakers can meet the criteria and some cannot, those that cannot should get out of the business. That is how it works in other industries.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
That only works in industries that don't have dominant or major political influence.
I am cautiously optimistic. When it goes up, I claim I have been optimistic; when it goes down, I claim I have been cautious.
Re: to buy new or used car?
Test drove a 2015 Lexus RX350. Quite a disappointment that it is no better than our 2013. The insulation is worse and the doors feel junky compared with the older version. A 2013 / 14 used RX with low kms might make a great vehicle for someone hoping to get into this segment. The 2016 is butt ugly and I fear they will alienate a lot of their older demographic with this vehicle, especially in the U.S. where so many older people drive RX's.
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... PORT-1.jpg
The 2016 model.
2 yen
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... PORT-1.jpg
The 2016 model.
2 yen
Re: to buy new or used car?
I traded my Lexus RX 400H in on a 2016 Honda Odyssey. I found the Honda to better in almost every category. We did test drive a Sienna and came to the conclusion that Honda was superior . The various options are a challenge. We chose the EX-L. It gave us the navigation package and the leather seats. I could have bought the higher Touring edition for 5k more. I didn't see any real advantage. It had a DV player and a rear vacuum. To me not worth it.2 yen wrote:Test drove a 2015 Lexus RX350. Quite a disappointment that it is no better than our 2013. The insulation is worse and the doors feel junky compared with the older version. A 2013 / 14 used RX with low kms might make a great vehicle for someone hoping to get into this segment. The 2016 is butt ugly and I fear they will alienate a lot of their older demographic with this vehicle, especially in the U.S. where so many older people drive RX's.
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... PORT-1.jpg
The 2016 model.
2 yen
Re: to buy new or used car?
I wish I could fast forward 2 years and see what the 2016 / 17 RX sales are like. I don't have a good vibe. There again, I'm usually wrong.Thegipper wrote:I traded my Lexus RX 400H in on a 2016 Honda Odyssey. I found the Honda to better in almost every category. We did test drive a Sienna and came to the conclusion that Honda was superior . The various options are a challenge. We chose the EX-L. It gave us the navigation package and the leather seats. I could have bought the higher Touring edition for 5k more. I didn't see any real advantage. It had a DV player and a rear vacuum. To me not worth it.2 yen wrote:Test drove a 2015 Lexus RX350. Quite a disappointment that it is no better than our 2013. The insulation is worse and the doors feel junky compared with the older version. A 2013 / 14 used RX with low kms might make a great vehicle for someone hoping to get into this segment. The 2016 is butt ugly and I fear they will alienate a lot of their older demographic with this vehicle, especially in the U.S. where so many older people drive RX's.
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... PORT-1.jpg
The 2016 model.
2 yen
2 yen
Re: to buy new or used car?
I suppose they want to make it look distinctive. There seem to be a lot of vehicles that look similar to the pre-2016 RX350. My guess is Lexus doesn't want potential customers looking at a Kia Sorento, for example. Some of the cheaper cars are loaded up with features and if it doesn't look much different from the premium brand, why pay more?2 yen wrote:Test drove a 2015 Lexus RX350. Quite a disappointment that it is no better than our 2013. The insulation is worse and the doors feel junky compared with the older version. A 2013 / 14 used RX with low kms might make a great vehicle for someone hoping to get into this segment. The 2016 is butt ugly and I fear they will alienate a lot of their older demographic with this vehicle, especially in the U.S. where so many older people drive RX's.
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... PORT-1.jpg
The 2016 model.
2 yen
Re: to buy new or used car?
Last winter I drove a friend's Highlander and discovered my Lexus RX400H was a glorified Highlander. I suspect the same with a Pilot and the Accura.
Re: to buy new or used car?
It is the same with Ford (Lincoln/Ford) and GM (Cadillac/Chev) and Nissan (Infiniti/Nissan). We bought the loaded Nissan Pathfinder 2 years ago versus the Infiniti JX at the time for at least a $10k saving.Thegipper wrote:Last winter I drove a friend's Highlander and discovered my Lexus RX400H was a glorified Highlander. I suspect the same with a Pilot and the Accura.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
FWIW in 1999 I wanted to buy a station wagon and there were hardly any made. With BMW and Volvo as high-priced non-starters, I wound up having to choose between a Ford Taurus and a Mercury Sable. CR gave the Sable a slightly higher score. With one exception, the only differences were cosmetic. The one exception was that the Sable had more soundproofing. A salesman at a dealership that sold both lines told me the Sable was "a Taurus for people over 50." (I bought the Sable and it was, in fact, a superb highway cruiser due in large part to its quiet ride and I was easily able to do 13-hour runs with just very brief pit stops. Later sold it to my handyman as a work vehicle and it was still running strong last year when a kid rear-ended him while driving and texting.)AltaRed wrote:It is the same with Ford (Lincoln/Ford) and GM (Cadillac/Chev) and Nissan (Infiniti/Nissan). We bought the loaded Nissan Pathfinder 2 years ago versus the Infiniti JX at the time for at least a $10k saving.Thegipper wrote:Last winter I drove a friend's Highlander and discovered my Lexus RX400H was a glorified Highlander. I suspect the same with a Pilot and the Accura.
Re: to buy new or used car?
Sure there are subtle differences in an attempt to justify the extra pricing. Extra soundproofing is one typical fallback example and is one of the differences in the Infiniti/Nissan comparison above. Also Xenon headlights in the Infiniti vs Halogen in the Nissan. Much cheaper to go after-market on that if I wanted Xenon headlights.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
Yeah the differences are typically subtle, and not worth the extra, unless the badge is important to you. Underneath, they're all the same, that's why if you do have the "luxury" brand, go and get the parts for the "standard" model. Verify of course, but 99% of the time it's the same part and part number, just different pricing.AltaRed wrote:Sure there are subtle differences in an attempt to justify the extra pricing. Extra soundproofing is one typical fallback example and is one of the differences in the Infiniti/Nissan comparison above. Also Xenon headlights in the Infiniti vs Halogen in the Nissan. Much cheaper to go after-market on that if I wanted Xenon headlights.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
As great as Toyotas are, this is a shameful black eye on them. A friend of mine is happy how reliable, and great value her Matrix has been, but she noticed something pretty funny as she approached 300,000 KMs.
Toyota called out over odometers that won't cross 299,999 km
Toyota called out over odometers that won't cross 299,999 km
Re: to buy new or used car?
Clearly worthwhiile for someone to go to the media to shame Toyota into a fix. What could be bragging rights on longevity is turning into 'shame'.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
AltaRed wrote:Clearly worthwhiile for someone to go to the media to shame Toyota into a fix. What could be bragging rights on longevity is turning into 'shame'.
I'm surprised there isn't more spotlight on this issue, and why regulators aren't pushing of for a fix. This will cause odometer fraud for sure.
The funny thing is, Canadian's got short changed in the conversion again. The US models go up to 299,999 miles before stopping, Canadians only get 299,999 KMs out of it.
Re: to buy new or used car?
This is a huge marketing opportunity gone missing. A child could write the add copy, a recall notice that is actually a humblebrag.AltaRed wrote:Clearly worthwhiile for someone to go to the media to shame Toyota into a fix. What could be bragging rights on longevity is turning into 'shame'.
Re: to buy new or used car?
Apropos of nothing, there are two cars parked across the street from my office right now. A Rolls Dawn coupe and a Rolls Phantom. Matching vanity plates. By my rough internet based calculation, over CAD$1MM in cars. Recession, what recession ?
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Re: to buy new or used car?
Hardworker, here is your next project. Of course, that assumes the GTA ever gets real snow again.
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Re: to buy new or used car?
brucecohen wrote:Hardworker, here is your next project. Of course, that assumes the GTA ever gets real snow again.
Hahaha. Probably the only smart car I'd ever drive. And speaking of having fun in Canadian winters.
Somehow I see a political metaphor in that loose spinning chunk of ice, floating for now, but how long will that fire and float last?
Re: to buy new or used car?
For those of us who can't wait for the snow to be gone, here's a clip from NZ to tide us over a little longer.
Jaguar "Virtual" Reality
Jaguar "Virtual" Reality