to buy new or used car?

Banking and Saving strategies, maximizing interest rates, budgeting, GICs, HISAs.
cashinstinct
Silver Ring
Silver Ring
Posts: 187
Joined: 01 May 2008 00:35

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by cashinstinct » 18 Nov 2016 19:31

Sure, for frequent short distance, rentals are out.

Take any car then, should be good for couple of years :)

Chuck
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1317
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 11:48
Location: Manitoba

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Chuck » 19 Nov 2016 02:11

Theoretically, you would want a low mileage older car so it would be cheap to insure. Note: I am in Manitoba, one cannot insure for liability only. Not sure how ROC works.

In MB, you would probably spend almost as much on insurance as cab fares in a 1500 km/year situation.

brucecohen
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 10880
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 16:47

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by brucecohen » 19 Nov 2016 08:42

Here's another option for the 1,500 km/year driver. Years ago I knew a guy who reckoned that depreciation on a car was (then) about $2,000/yr. So every couple of years he asked his mechanic to find him a used older car for about $1,500. He drove it for roughly two years or until it needed expensive repair and then replaced it with another beater. Carried only liability insurance. Got the mobility he wanted though no style. My handyman pretty much does that now using Kijiji. He does pay more but also keeps the cars longer. The key is having a reliable cost-conscious mechanic.

Thegipper
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1209
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 16:58

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Thegipper » 19 Nov 2016 11:35

IdOp wrote:No it wasn't a typo, but quite understandable that it might look like one. I agree also that purely financially it doesn't make sense to have the car, so the suggestions to consider alternatives are good ones in case someone didn't think about doing that.

The car is used mostly for short local trips, primarily weekly grocery shopping and driving a quite elderly relative to various doctor visits. For those purposes the cost of rental would probably be out, but a taxi/uber would be cheaper. Both would be quite tedious though. The convenience, independence and consistent quality of having a car easily available has real value to us.

I tell myself that some of the money being saved by ultra-low-cost investing and other frugalities might as well be spent on something like that.
Buy a 10 year old Corolla and buy liability insurance and drive it until it quits. Would probably cost 5 or 6 k. With the mileage you put on I would think you could drive it 10 years without any need for repairs. You get excellent gas mileage as well.

User avatar
AltaRed
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 18400
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 20:04
Location: Ogopogo Land

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by AltaRed » 19 Nov 2016 12:26

The same can be said for a 10 year old basic Toyota Camry or Honda Accord if someone wants a bit more room and comfort. Perfectly good options for low mileage drivers. I recently chatted to a guy with, IIRC, a 1991 Nissan compact pickup with 365,000km on it. He continues to rely on it for short commutes/errands/drives.

Added: Also, there is a good supply of used parts around for these popular vehicles, whether starters, rads, or.....
Imagefiniki, the Canadian financial wiki The go-to place to bolster your financial freedom

User avatar
kcowan
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 13028
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 20:33
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by kcowan » 19 Nov 2016 14:19

When my 93 Explorer needed a new computer, I got it from Rock Auto online, delivered to my mechanic in Mexico, for $184. The car still only has 140,000 km on it. Owned since new. I am stubborn and not proud.

After Firestone replaced all the tires for free, I have replaced 2 and will replace the other 2 in a year or so.
For the fun of it...Keith

User avatar
IdOp
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 2857
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 11:27
Location: On the Pacific sea bed, 100 mi off the CA coast.
Contact:

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by IdOp » 19 Nov 2016 23:23

Chuck, brucecohen, Thegipper and AltaRed, thanks for the suggestions surrounding a mid-life car, they're worth considering, especially in general. The key would be for the 10 y.o. car to be in tip-top shape at the time of purchase. Given that, 5 years of minimal downtime may be quite probable. Being assured of that would be difficult for non-car-experts without a trustworthy mechanic to rely on, as Bruce pointed out.

In addition, here the other person involved is averse to "used cars" due to experience/mistakes of the past. While not all that relevant, it is what it is. So, looking for a good deal on a 2016 from a dealer is the approach being tried now. If that fails, going somewhat into used territory may be necessary.

User avatar
Insomniac
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1835
Joined: 29 Oct 2011 19:01
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Insomniac » 19 Nov 2016 23:48

I'm wondering what type of car will work on the Pacific seabed, 100 miles off the California coast? Submarine?

I won't be buying another used car as a daily driver. Beaters are fine if you can do your own maintenance. I used to do all my own maintenance: oil changes, brakes, timing belts, plugs, filters, etc. As I get older, it's harder to do; lying under a car in the cold and dark ain't fun anymore. Plus, I don't have the equipment to deal with all the new computer controlled devices in the newer cars.

I have a 1954 Chevy which I work on - it's a simple, easy to manage machine. If it needs work, it can wait until I feel like it as it's not my daily driver. Changed the antifreeze, dumped some fuel stabilizer in the tank and charged the battery today. It can sleep until next Spring.

User avatar
AltaRed
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 18400
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 20:04
Location: Ogopogo Land

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by AltaRed » 20 Nov 2016 00:43

IdOp wrote:In addition, here the other person involved is averse to "used cars" due to experience/mistakes of the past. While not all that relevant, it is what it is. So, looking for a good deal on a 2016 from a dealer is the approach being tried now. If that fails, going somewhat into used territory may be necessary.
Then it hardly matters how good the deal for the 2016 really is. The 'need' for a new car will never be a value proposition so the person should just go buy whatever suits his/her fancy using the end of model year discounts being offered by the manufacturers. And to do it now before year end when both manufacturers and dealers want to clear their books.
Imagefiniki, the Canadian financial wiki The go-to place to bolster your financial freedom

2 yen
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 2633
Joined: 09 Apr 2005 09:15

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by 2 yen » 20 Nov 2016 06:16

AltaRed wrote:
IdOp wrote:In addition, here the other person involved is averse to "used cars" due to experience/mistakes of the past. While not all that relevant, it is what it is. So, looking for a good deal on a 2016 from a dealer is the approach being tried now. If that fails, going somewhat into used territory may be necessary.
Then it hardly matters how good the deal for the 2016 really is. The 'need' for a new car will never be a value proposition so the person should just go buy whatever suits his/her fancy using the end of model year discounts being offered by the manufacturers. And to do it now before year end when both manufacturers and dealers want to clear their books.
What do dealers do with 2016 models that are still hanging around in the spring? Also, Is it just me, or does it seem like dealers are not even interested in cash sales anymore? I have expressed some interest to my salesperson and there is no effort to try and lure me in. Could be that she's on to my Scottish 'careful' ways or that they really want to lease and make loans, to truly double down on the money they make. (?)

2 yen

Thegipper
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1209
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 16:58

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Thegipper » 20 Nov 2016 10:17

Insomniac wrote:I'm wondering what type of car will work on the Pacific seabed, 100 miles off the California coast? Submarine?

I won't be buying another used car as a daily driver. Beaters are fine if you can do your own maintenance. I used to do all my own maintenance: oil changes, brakes, timing belts, plugs, filters, etc. As I get older, it's harder to do; lying under a car in the cold and dark ain't fun anymore. Plus, I don't have the equipment to deal with all the new computer controlled devices in the newer cars.

I have a 1954 Chevy which I work on - it's a simple, easy to manage machine. If it needs work, it can wait until I feel like it as it's not my daily driver. Changed the antifreeze, dumped some fuel stabilizer in the tank and charged the battery today. It can sleep until next Spring.
It depends on what kind of beater you drive. I just sold a Honda Ridleline with 260k mileage. Maintenance? oil change , brake job at 130k, timing belt at 130k, change are filters once a year that's it. Same with a Toyota Corolla which has 253k on it. If it is a Honda or a Toyota and the brakes have been done and the timing belt has been done I don't see any trips to a mechanic. Once a year to Mr Lube for an oil change should do it. That's why certain makes hold there value much better then other makes.

twa2w
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1674
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 13:08

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by twa2w » 20 Nov 2016 12:13

2 yen wrote:
AltaRed wrote:
IdOp wrote:In addition, here the other person involved is averse to "used cars" due to experience/mistakes of the past. While not all that relevant, it is what it is. So, looking for a good deal on a 2016 from a dealer is the approach being tried now. If that fails, going somewhat into used territory may be necessary.
Then it hardly matters how good the deal for the 2016 really is. The 'need' for a new car will never be a value proposition so the person should just go buy whatever suits his/her fancy using the end of model year discounts being offered by the manufacturers. And to do it now before year end when both manufacturers and dealers want to clear their books.
What do dealers do with 2016 models that are still hanging around in the spring? Also, Is it just me, or does it seem like dealers are not even interested in cash sales anymore? I have expressed some interest to my salesperson and there is no effort to try and lure me in. Could be that she's on to my Scottish 'careful' ways or that they really want to lease and make loans, to truly double down on the money they make. (?)

2 yen
Dealers do not make much on the actual sale of the car itself. For many dealers, most if not all their money at the front end( sales) is made in the business office. This is the office they refer you to after the sale is made. The 'business manager' will then sell you financing, rust proof, fabric & paint protection, etching etc etc. These are mostly pure profit. The dealer gets kick backs on the financing as well. Total of kickbacks and other busiiness office sales can be up to 5-6000, a good % of which is profit.
The cash buyer is less likely to accept these 'offers'. So alas cash is no longer king.

With most financing buyers, the cost of protecting your investment is part of the payment. They never really see the total cost of the protection.

When I lived in Newmarket in the 1990's I had a client/ friend who did rust proofing and scotchgarding for many of the dealers around Toronto. The dealer would sell rust proofing for 5-600.00. He charged the dealer 90.00 approx. Said it took a minimum wage guy less than an hour to spray the car and it cost him less than 5.00 in chemicals. Scotchgarding was a < 20 minute job and took about 1.00 of material. At the time you could buy ca can of scotchguard for about 5.00 at CTC and do it yourself. IIRC the dealer charged over 100.00. I think Brian charged the dealer sbout 25.00

User avatar
IdOp
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 2857
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 11:27
Location: On the Pacific sea bed, 100 mi off the CA coast.
Contact:

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by IdOp » 20 Nov 2016 20:07

Insomniac wrote:I'm wondering what type of car will work on the Pacific seabed, 100 miles off the California coast? Submarine?
You're on exactly the right track! It would be a mechanical "terror" fish craft (with movable jaw):

Image

:)
Attachments
mechfish.gif
mechfish.gif (31.31 KiB) Viewed 1110 times

User avatar
Shakespeare
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 20761
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 23:25
Location: Lethbridge, AB
Contact:

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Shakespeare » 20 Nov 2016 20:15

I was hoping for something more Bondly:
lotus-esprit-s1-bond-1.jpg
“A wise man should be prepared to abandon his baggage at any time.” -- R.A. Heinlein, The Door Into Summer.

User avatar
Insomniac
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1835
Joined: 29 Oct 2011 19:01
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Insomniac » 20 Nov 2016 23:19

:D
If you want a fish, how about a Barracuda instead of that ugly codfish? The 2017 Barracuda will be out in January. (maybe - don't know when/if it will be available in Canada)

Image

https://carsintrend.com/2017-dodge-barr ... ler-group/

kostya
Bronze Ring
Bronze Ring
Posts: 31
Joined: 07 Apr 2016 09:21
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by kostya » 19 Dec 2016 21:27

Great thread, will keep coming back to read older posts in the future.

The following might be not relevant/interesting to many, but those who like driving and would consider a sportier car, keep reading... If you always thought that driving sporty cars is too expensive, keep reading too...

There is a huge market for cars specially made for auto enthusiasts. Many of those cars, when bought used will retain resale value extremely well. Since they were made for people who like "spirited" driving, many have rigid/enforced engines, transmissions, suspensions, chassis, etc. Auto enthusiasts love their cars and many of them take great care of their rides. If choosing carefully, you can get a car in a great shape with not so many miles on it and it will be very reliable. Many are driven only in summer, if you do so too then you will avoid the rust and will have the car serve you well for many years ahead. These kinds of cars usually have big fan bases, so lots of info available on repairs/maintenance/parts and a lot of after-market support.

From maintenance perspective. Knowing how car works and doing some work yourself definitely would help, but if you know good mechanics specialized in specific makes then it can actually be cheaper than serving at the dealer, especially for some europian makes. If you know the car parts web-sites such as http://www.rockauto.com then you can buy some parts cheaper and in some cases better-made than oem.

Some examples, most of them sould be considered only 5-10 year old, some might be even older.

Roadsters, usually for summer driving only:

1) Chevrolet Corvette
2) Mazda Miata
3) Honda 2000S
4) BMW Z3/Z4

Some a bit more "every-day" cars:

1) BMW 1 series and (some) 3 and 5 series. Yes, you might think how the maintenace can be cheap for these. It can, if you buy the right car, buy parts yourself and know the right place for maintenance.
2) Subaru WRX/STI. Beware of modifications on these and make sure engines are in good shapes.
3) BRZ/FRS. These are very small for every-day use, but non-the-less have 4 seats
4) Some american musle cars

-------------------

I know these are not your typical honda civics and toyota camries in terms of purchase price, fuel economy and maintenance. But if you love driving, you don't drive many thousands of miles per year, or simply want a nice summer ride, some of those cars can proove to be great value. Some may actually sell for more than you buy them for. As I said, its a different market. But many people don't get into it only because they don't understand it or think it is too expensive...

User avatar
IdOp
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 2857
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 11:27
Location: On the Pacific sea bed, 100 mi off the CA coast.
Contact:

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by IdOp » 29 Jan 2017 11:50

On 31 Oct 2016 I wrote:I recently became the point-person in the quest to replace a 24-year-old vehicle.
Earlier this month this quest reached a conclusion when I purchased a new vehicle. I'll try to pull out some generalities from my experience that may be helpful.

Consumer Reports was very useful. I was able to access it free online through the a public library. This was huge. Useful parts of CR included:

* buying guide for the kind of cars you're intrested in (great for newbs, like me);

* safety test information is summarized;

* overall ratings of cars;

* ratings are broken down into various categories, like "ride", "reliability", "fuel economy", "owner satisfaction", so you can focus on the aspects most important to you;

* summary of the biggest Pros and Cons of rated vehicles. Again, you can decide which matter to you;

* site was linked into Unhaggle.com so you could quickly look up pricing information.

Unhaggle was also extremely useful, although not perfect. My sense is that if you're really, really, really averse to "haggling" then you could go with Unhaggle for the purchase, and possibly get a pretty good price. That was my thinking at the start, but I now think it may often not be that hard to do better. For a little extra effort, you may save a few hundred dollars (see paragraph [*][/b] below).

When I started out I was hoping to get a 2016 car while they were being cleared out, and Toyota and Honda were the main targets due to their reputation for reliability. Unfortunately, due to the random timing of the start of my search, and the time needed to get up to speed a bit (such as by reading this thread and CR), and some preliminary investigation (Kia), there were no new 2016 Toyotas left (Camry or RAV4) at dealers.

However, when I went to Unhaggle it kept giving me quotes on 2016's. At this point I felt that a 2016 RAV4 would probably be a good option at that price, so what the heck I got a free certificate from Unhaggle for one. Soon there was a call from a dealer, who explained that they didn't have any (much as I expected). When I complained that Unhaggle was offering me something they didn't have, as a sign of goodwill they made me what I suspected was a very good offer on a 2017, hundreds below its own Unhaggle price. Measured another way, it had a pre-tax dealer discount greater than 6% of the MSRP base price.

Still, a 2017 was more than I had hoped to pay, so I put that offer in my back pocket and continued to investigate alternatives. Honda still had some 2016 CR-V's, but only with All Wheel Drive, which made them expensive too. I decided to wait until year-end to see if there would be any special deals.

As it happened the 2017 CR-Vs only began to trickle in in late December. They had some good changes, like getting rid of the road noise problem (according to CR). But the Canadian ones had all
switched to a turbo engine, which I didn't want. Side by side, it became clear that the lowest 2017 CR-V just couldn't compete price-wise with the 2017 RAV4 offer I had, so I re-focused on that.

Hoping for an end-of-month/end-of-year bonus-inspired bargain, I returned to Toyota just before year-end. Alas, nothing was forthcoming.

[*][/b] At this point I contacted several local dealers, using the Unhaggle price as a verifiable baseline to be beat, and asked for their best offer. The outcome was that they seemed to be converging near the offer I already had, plus/minus $50. This convinced me that this "back pocket" offer was really about as good as it was going to get.

As luck would have it, come January there was a new $1,000 (after-tax) manufacturer rebate on the vehicle. Patience had been rewarded at last. So I ceased haggling for diminishing returns and bought at the "back pocket" offer, which was from the closest dealer to me anyway, where I'd taken test drives etc.

Some other thoughts:

* New cars are a commodity item, making it easier to shop for them than used cars, which are a different ballgame. This has its price of course.

* It's true new cars have extra costs, the largest being freight and HST. But ISTM these costs must also be reflected in used cars. In a hypothetical world where freight is free and there are no taxes, new cars would be cheaper and so would used cars. These costs may not be explicit, but you can't avoid them entirely by buying used. So I look at them as part of the inevitable cost of a car, much like you pay for the tires, the engine, etc.

* In some cases (i.e., manufacturers) there will be no Unhaggle dealer in your area. This makes things more difficult. But if you know what car you want, you can still canvas dealers within an acceptable
distance. Dealers can be found from the manufacturer's website.

OnlyMyOpinion
Silver Ring
Silver Ring
Posts: 661
Joined: 24 Jan 2014 23:17

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by OnlyMyOpinion » 29 Jan 2017 13:30

Thanks IdOp, a disciplined buyer (not many of them) and useful info. :thumbsup:

8Toretirement
Silver Ring
Silver Ring
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Nov 2014 14:55

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by 8Toretirement » 30 Jan 2017 11:08

kcowan wrote:When my 93 Explorer needed a new computer, I got it from Rock Auto online, delivered to my mechanic in Mexico, for $184. The car still only has 140,000 km on it. Owned since new. I am stubborn and not proud.

After Firestone replaced all the tires for free, I have replaced 2 and will replace the other 2 in a year or so.
Kcowan, do you speak Spanish or did you find an English speaking mechanic in PV?

BRIAN5000
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 5881
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 23:27

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by BRIAN5000 » 05 Jul 2017 20:29

http://www.redflagdeals.com/deal/motor- ... nda_070517]

Honda Canada: Up to $4000.00 Cash Incentive with Select 2017 Vehicles
“Sometimes you are going to sell early and wish you would’ve held on, other times you will hold on a
little bit longer and wish you would’ve sold early - this is just part of the game.” - Frank Zorilla via Abnormal Returns

User avatar
kcowan
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 13028
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 20:33
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by kcowan » 06 Jul 2017 09:29

8Toretirement wrote:
30 Jan 2017 11:08
kcowan wrote:When my 93 Explorer needed a new computer, I got it from Rock Auto online, delivered to my mechanic in Mexico, for $184. The car still only has 140,000 km on it. Owned since new. I am stubborn and not proud.

After Firestone replaced all the tires for free, I have replaced 2 and will replace the other 2 in a year or so.
Kcowan, do you speak Spanish or did you find an English speaking mechanic in PV?
all professionals have English skills and my guy is a trained Audi mechanic. He had completed his apprenticeship at the Audi dealer and was going out on his own. Cost a bit more than the hackers but still cheap compared to Canada. His place is always full but he does respond to emergencies.

I find dealing with professionals essential because language training does not include rotors brake pads suspension carboraters et al.
For the fun of it...Keith

User avatar
Arby
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 2368
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 19:23
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Arby » 09 Jul 2017 19:02

I'm looking at buying a 2016 Lexus from a Lexus dealer. One dealer has a 2016 demo vehicle with mileage of 5,000 km, and another dealer has a used 2016 vehicle with 10,000 km. Is there a difference in how the remaining warranty is determined between a used vehicle versus a demo vehicle ? The warranty in-service date on the used vehicle would be the date it was registered to the first owner. What about the demo vehicle - considering that it has 5,000 km and is 1 year old, does it already have a warranty in-service date ?

Thegipper
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1209
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 16:58

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Thegipper » 02 Aug 2017 21:56

Turbo chargers. I note many new autos have turbo charge options. The turbo engines are smaller and more expensive then the standard engines. The apparent advantages is more power and better fuel economy. My concern is the reliability of turbo chargers and the cost of repairs. I recall a few years back a friends[jeep] turbo charger crashed days after the warranty expired. The cost of repairing and replacing the system was 8k. I am looking at some of the compact models and they all seem to be pushing the turbo models. Would be interested any experiences or insights.

User avatar
AltaRed
Diamond Ring
Diamond Ring
Posts: 18400
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 20:04
Location: Ogopogo Land

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by AltaRed » 02 Aug 2017 22:58

I have 2 thoughts about turbochargers: 1) They are an extra system that can go wrong...even if it doesn't, and 2) I don't like the response lag as the turbocharger spools up to generate the extra horsepower. When I hit the throttle, the acceleration better happen immediately.

P.S. IMO, the domestic manufacturers still don't really know how to build powertrains. Your friend's problem was owning a Jeep. Buy German or Japanese and you should be fine. Check JD Power and Consumer Report ratings yourself if you disagree.
Imagefiniki, the Canadian financial wiki The go-to place to bolster your financial freedom

Thegipper
Gold Ring
Gold Ring
Posts: 1209
Joined: 14 Mar 2015 16:58

Re: to buy new or used car?

Post by Thegipper » 02 Aug 2017 23:14

AltaRed wrote:
02 Aug 2017 22:58
I have 2 thoughts about turbochargers: 1) They are an extra system that can go wrong...even if it doesn't, and 2) I don't like the response lag as the turbocharger spools up to generate the extra horsepower. When I hit the throttle, the acceleration better happen immediately.

P.S. IMO, the domestic manufacturers still don't really know how to build powertrains. Your friend's problem was owning a Jeep. Buy German or Japanese and you should be fine. Check JD Power and Consumer Report ratings yourself if you disagree.
His Jeep had a Mercedes diesel motor. I do believe that the Japanese and Germans have a better grasp for this technology.

Post Reply