how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new car?

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Springbok » 20 Apr 2013 12:00

max88 wrote:I followed brucecohen's post above for a new vehicle. Thanks brucecohen.
Problem could be if you live in an area with just one dealer. May be better for dealer-buyer relationship to buy from local dealer regardless. But it is useful to know what best price might be before approaching them.

There is also the matter of a trade. Without taking car to actual dealer, how to know what they would give you for trade? Could involve a lot of driving around! Net price ((Newcar price -Trade in price) +dealer prep+shipping+options+taxes+??) is key when comparing different cars and comparing dealer quotes for same car.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by max88 » 20 Apr 2013 12:50

Springbok wrote:
max88 wrote:I followed brucecohen's post above for a new vehicle. Thanks brucecohen.
Problem could be if you live in an area with just one dealer. May be better for dealer-buyer relationship to buy from local dealer regardless. But it is useful to know what best price might be before approaching them.

There is also the matter of a trade. Without taking car to actual dealer, how to know what they would give you for trade? Could involve a lot of driving around! Net price ((Newcar price -Trade in price) +dealer prep+shipping+options+taxes+??) is key when comparing different cars and comparing dealer quotes for same car.
Granted we live in the GTA where auto business is the most competitive in Canada, and we didn't have a trade-in, so we were able to leverage to our advantage.

You have good points. My parents live in a small city where there is only one, at most two for big names, dealerships for each brand. There is literally no competition, not even among different brands, as some dealerships are owned by the same person. My parents had to search a few hundred KM's away for a better deal.

As for trade-in, all my previous vehicle were in bad shape, and they were all sold as near scrap metals. :cry:
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by westinvest » 20 Apr 2013 21:56

One thing I noticed in contacting competing dealers through email addresses provided through their website is that there appears to be coordination (probably through some sort of CRM system) of responses to queries sent to multiple dealers such that once one dealer had sent a response the others would not, or if they had sent an initial response would stop responding once another dealer had taken the lead. This implies that the email system is coordinated at the manufacturers' or national sales office level. This happened to me in dealing with both Subaru and Audi recently.
Last edited by westinvest on 20 Apr 2013 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Shakespeare » 20 Apr 2013 22:18

My RAV4 was bought via Dealfinder.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by zinfit » 21 Apr 2013 00:55

A friend bought a 2013 Toyota Highlander with every option. It was bought from a Dallas dealer as a used vehicle . It was bought by an older lady who put 1000 miles on it and returned it for a car. He paid 39k and says the best price back home for this vehicle was 51k. Its virtually impossible to buy a new car in the USA. The dealers I have talked say they can lose their dealerships by selling a new vehicle to a Canadian.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Bylo Selhi » 21 Apr 2013 09:20

Shakespeare wrote:My RAV4 was bought via Dealfinder.
We bought a Civic through Bob a couple of years ago. In the end we didn't save all that much, perhaps $200 after deducting his fee, and had to go to Tronno to get it. The main advantage to a service like Dealfinder is to validate that the prices you can get on your own are reasonable. That wasn't always the case. A decade or so before I was able to save substantial amounts using a broker compared to the best prices I was able to get on my own.

I get the feeling that these days all the dealers know about the mass e-mail game and how to play it. This post seems to confirm this:
Good luck with this. I've tried it. At one time, the internet gave buyers an edge, but not anymore. Dealers know all the tricks and they know the game. Definitely do your research, but don't go into it thinking the dealer doesn't know the internet exists or what information is out there. He does. In my experience, most dealers won't play the "quote over the phone or email" game with you anymore. They won't even talk with you unless you're at the dealership. Sure, there are exceptions, but for the most part, this trick doesn't work anymore. You're not going to get any better deal doing this than going to the dealer. You might save some time and effort, but not much money, if any.
As for trade-ins, if your car is too old for them to resell off their lots then they're going to sell to an auctioneer. In that case unless your car is in exceptional (good or bad) shape you're just going to get "book" value. It was almost uncanny how every dealer we went to with a 10 year old trade-in offered us the same price.

See also 17 Things Car Salesmen Don't Want You to Know, especially 2. and 15 in the context of this discussion. But note this is a US site so not everything applies up here.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by AltaRed » 21 Apr 2013 10:16

It seems for most Japanese vehicles, 5% off MRSP is about as good as it gets (or about half of their 10% markup) plus a few extras like rubber mats et al. Or taking advantage of incentives that occur from time to time, or year end clear outs. For high demand Japanese vehicles, good luck on any negotiating room other than some high margin extras like rubber mats et al thrown in.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Norbert Schlenker » 21 Apr 2013 11:54

westinvest wrote:One thing I noticed in contacting competing dealers through email addresses provided through their website is that there appears to be coordination ...
You're in BC. Jimmy Pattison owns half the car dealers in the province.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by steves » 21 Apr 2013 12:51

This was second hand, but gives some insight into the fine art of arab horse trading. A car salesman was approached by a prospective customer. They haggled for over an hour. Then, the customer was tag-teamed by his buddy, and another hour of haggling ensued with guy#2. In all, 4 or 5 of these individuals (probably relatives) spelled each other off until the salesman was worn out and capitulated.

After agreeing to a price and tendering a downpmt, they returned the next day with the final check... considerably less than the prior day's agreed upon price. He finally threw them out. I won't say the ethnicity of the buyers, but this happened on the North Shore.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by max88 » 21 Apr 2013 14:53

Norbert Schlenker wrote:
westinvest wrote:One thing I noticed in contacting competing dealers through email addresses provided through their website is that there appears to be coordination ...
You're in BC. Jimmy Pattison owns half the car dealers in the province.
I am sure there is still competition among sales reps and/or sales managers within Jimmy Pattision's company. In that case, call up the dealers and ask for the individuals email address, and bypass their website emails.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by brucecohen » 22 Apr 2013 11:26

Springbok wrote: There is also the matter of a trade. Without taking car to actual dealer, how to know what they would give you for trade?
Canadian Black Book has a trade-in value calculator. Based on surveys of dealers, it shows the high-to-low range in your greater geographic region based on postal code. Where your dealer's bid will fall within that range would of course depend on the condition of the car, the demand for it and how many used cars the dealer already has on its lot. I wasn't aware of the significance of that last point until we recently bought a 2010 Forester for DW. The dealer's asking price was below my computer-generated averages for 2009s and we negotiated down from there. The car had an accident-free record and got a 100% clean bill of health from the Master Mechanic inspection. I later asked a friend who sells Toyotas about what seemed to be a pricing anomaly. He told me that each dealer has a set limit on how much used inventory it'll carry and is willing to dump units over that count especially as every April brings in a flood of used models as leases expire. (FWIW, almost the only way to buy a clean late-model Japanese car is to get one whose lease has ended, and my friend told me that April is normally the biggest month for turn-ins. He also said that any car on the lot past 60 days is "stale" and the dealer will just want to get rid of it. That's rare when the car is clean, but does occur when a model has an unpopular colour. For example, yellow.)

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Springbok » 22 Apr 2013 13:03

brucecohen wrote:
Springbok wrote: There is also the matter of a trade. Without taking car to actual dealer, how to know what they would give you for trade?
Canadian Black Book has a trade-in value calculator.
Fixed the link in post above to Black book.

Unfortunately for those who keep cars longer, only goes back to MY2000. It also doesn't price cars with high odometer readings:
Unfortunately we are unable to provide a value on this vehicle because of the high odometer reading for the year of the vehicle. Please visit a dealer to get a professional evaluation.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by deaddog » 22 Apr 2013 16:46

Remember when negotiating that information is power. Do your homework.

You’ll get the best deal at the dealers lot in person. If you commit to making a deal that day if you can come to a price, you’ll be surprised at how low they will go rather than see you leave the lot.

Shop the last couple of days of the month. There are quotas to be met and the sales managers tend to be a little more flexible.

You are in control. After all you have the money and if you leave, chances are some other dealer will end up with the sale.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by pmj » 22 Apr 2013 20:21

brucecohen wrote: He also said that any car on the lot past 60 days is "stale" and the dealer will just want to get rid of it. That's rare when the car is clean, but does occur when a model has an unpopular colour. For example, yellow.)
Interesting. In January I bought a Toyota in Pickering that had been on the lot since at least October, possibly August - and from Oct to Jan the price came down at a rate of $47/day - until I showed my hand, when the decline stopped :oops:. And it's yellow :thumbsup:.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by FinEcon » 23 Apr 2013 00:03

Have any of you tried this with a higher end more desirable model? I know this is an excellent method when shopping for entry level toasters like Corollas, Civics, RAVs, Jettas, etc (or any other POS bargain basement transportation that they sell millions of) but my gut tells me this won't have much of an effect when shopping for an M series BMW, Audi S4, or any other vehicle someone might actually aspire to own. All comments appreciated even if you don't like/agree with my mocking of ugly, reliable, gutless, low end cars. Example, say you wanted a Q7 diesel, same approach?
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by brucecohen » 23 Apr 2013 09:46

FinEcon wrote:Example, say you wanted a Q7 diesel, same approach?
I don't see why not. Whether it's a Focus or a Rolls, it's just a car and (non-vintage) cars are commodities. The salesman is a salesman and wants to get the metal off the lot. He/she earns nothing if the cars -- no matter how fancy -- just sit there.
deaddog wrote:You’ll get the best deal at the dealers lot in person. If you commit to making a deal that day if you can come to a price, you’ll be surprised at how low they will go rather than see you leave the lot.
Maybe. 2 thoughts:
-- When I bought my car new I got a report from CarCost Canada and the dealer to whom they referred me offered an unbeatable price, all by email. That was because he knew that I had the CCC info including an unpublicized factory-dealer incentive and because I was dealing with the sales manager. When I went in to sign the contract, he told me that he loves CCC because the customer is essentially already qualified and committed so the whole process normally takes less than 30 minutes of his time.

-- When we recently bought a used car for DW, we agreed in advance to pull the same ploy on the salesman that they pull on customers. You know how they always have to walk away to consult their manager? We spoke to the guy at length, got his asking price with all components itemized and then told him we were going to a coffee shop to discuss it. At the coffee shop, we were able to calmly decide our opening counter-offer, how high we'd be willing to go, what else we wanted, and our bargaining strategy. All without feeling pressured. When we returned, he was very happy to see us and quite amenable to our terms. I obviously don't know if walking away for an hour really made a difference for him but it certainly did for us as our counter-offer was much better organized and presented than if we had done it on the fly in the showroom. (BTW in cities with large immigrant areas it's essential to compare dealer pricing through autotrader.ca. We checked cars at one dealership in a Chinese area and another in a suburb that's almost all Italian. In both cases, the posted asking price was higher than normal, probably because those cultures thrive on bargaining.)

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Springbok » 23 Apr 2013 10:12

FinEcon wrote:Have any of you tried this with a higher end more desirable model?

Talking about new cars here and you may have a point. Dealers of commodity cars that fill up their lots may have incentives to move them when overstocked. But a less common upper end vehicle is seldom over-stocked and usually sold before dealer gets concerned over his financing.

Commodity car dealers most likely don't immediately pay for those new cars on their lots. But as time to pay approaches, they need to start moving them, even at close to their cost, otherwise they may have to resort to less attractive financing.

For an upper end vehicle I have been looking at, the dealer margin on the base car is about $4000. But options have higher margins. As a result, they load up their stock cars with options. They can offer discounts or better trade-ins by using some of their option margin. But I don't want the options - Just more things to go wrong!

But because of limited supply and a different supply system, you are right that haggling is more difficult at the upper end.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by AltaRed » 23 Apr 2013 10:38

And haggling is close to a non-starter on vehicles with a waiting list of months for delivery.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Yukon Maiden » 23 Apr 2013 11:48

A good way to discuss things with your spouse without risking anyone listening in on you is to text back and forth. Makes the salesman mental as well. They hate not being in on the conversation.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Bylo Selhi » 23 Apr 2013 12:37

brucecohen wrote:-- When I bought my car new I got a report from CarCost Canada and the dealer to whom they referred me offered an unbeatable price, all by email. That was because he knew that I had the CCC info including an unpublicized factory-dealer incentive and because I was dealing with the sales manager. When I went in to sign the contract, he told me that he loves CCC because the customer is essentially already qualified and committed so the whole process normally takes less than 30 minutes of his time.
Larger dealerships also have fleet managers or Internet managers who are willing to do a quick deal at bare bones profit. Like salespeople, dealerships have quotas (with the manufacturer) so the more units they move, the more likely they'll get bonuses and other incentives. Also AFAIK the sales, fleet and Internet managers aren't on commission so presumably the dealer is more willing to do a low-profit sale through them then the regular sales staff.

In addition, because the Internet and the likes of CCC have given consumers more information and thus bargaining power, profit margins on new car sales have declined. As a result dealerships are becoming increasingly dependent on their service department for profits. (That's why they "recommend" certain maintenance that isn't in the manufacturer's schedule.) They're counting on you to bring your new car in for service at the dealership where you bought the car.
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by Arby » 23 Apr 2013 15:53

I've found that maintenance servicing is more of a ripoff at the dealer of the higher end cars. I usually have my Acura serviced at a Honda dealer because it's about 15% cheaper than the Acura dealer.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new c

Post by westinvest » 24 Apr 2013 00:38

FinEcon wrote:Have any of you tried this with a higher end more desirable model?
As I noted above it is difficult to get competitive quotes from competing dealers by email, and typically there are fewer dealers to approach for the higher end cars, but I have successfully negotiated with dealers for BMW and Audi over the past few years. Typically the dealer markup for these cars is about 9%, and my last few deals I was able to get discounts in the 5 to 6% range off MSRP, but that usually had a factory incentive included. It's worthwhile to use one of the car cost sites to get an idea of what factory offers are currently - for Audi there is currently a $1500 cash discount available, plus what you can convince the dealer to contribute.

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new car?

Post by fundy48 » 15 Feb 2017 20:26

Okay a variation on the question. Looking to buy a high end used suv, about 2 yr old, had been a rental, low km. It has been on the lot for awhile, the salesman says make an offer. So low an offer, percent reduction is reasonable to make as an offer?

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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new car?

Post by BRIAN5000 » 15 Feb 2017 20:50

fundy48 wrote:Okay a variation on the question. Looking to buy a high end used suv, about 2 yr old, had been a rental, low km. It has been on the lot for awhile, the salesman says make an offer. So low an offer, percent reduction is reasonable to make as an offer?
Maybe a good place to start http://www.vmrcanada.com/canada_makes.htm

Also get a quote from unhaggle on a new vehicle compare the two how much do you save by buying a car with a Declaration, how much warranty left etc.?

What vehicle, specs etc.?

How about a test, I have a 2016 Honda Accord, 4cly, Touring, 3800 km, put in service May 15 2016, IIRC I paid about $36,000 with tax how much would people pay for this now? How much would a dealer want for it?
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Re: how do you guys negotiate with car salesman to buy new car?

Post by Hopetoretire » 15 Feb 2017 23:36

Had manual shift car, no dealer would pay fair market value as "no one knows how to drive these in Toronto" (!) Donated it to Teen Challenge and got a fair market value tax receipt for CRA.

http://www.teenchallenge.ca/donate/vehi ... on-program

They came to pick it up at the dealer the same time I was getting my new car, said they would use my old car to run errands and drive the youth around to doctors, odd jobs, etc. Better feeling than thinking I was ripped off by dealer :D

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