Housing Market 2018

Leveraging, renting vs owning, making an investment or buying a home?
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by squid »

Sorry, China seized the insurer to stop the insurer from crashing.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Flaccidsteele »

rapporteur wrote: 22 Feb 2018 22:11 Instead I will explain an ‘old standby’ of low-level money laundering. Low level, well known, but still very doable! Buying and selling used cars!

Here’s how it works (simplest case, much obfuscatory embroidery can be added to the basic pattern once understood)…

The Launderer looks for used cars for sale (nothing exotic, probably under $10,000 asking). Let’s say he buys a car from ‘A’. He offers a good price (doesn’t haggle too hard) but is adamant about one aspect – a cash deal. ‘A’ doesn’t object – no chance of getting burned on a cash deal.
‘A’ signs the ‘sales contract’ part of the registration and asks who to put in the ‘Sold To’ field. The Launderer replies. “Just leave that blank; I’ll fill it in later.” Launderer pays A in cash - deal is concluded.
I just sold a used car recently. When I went with the buyer to the government to exchange ownership, they were very thorough and didn't allow anything to be left blank.

In what province are you allowed to do what you're suggesting?
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by pmj »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 24 Feb 2018 23:24
rapporteur wrote: 22 Feb 2018 22:11 Instead I will explain an ‘old standby’ of low-level money laundering. Low level, well known, but still very doable! Buying and selling used cars!

Here’s how it works (simplest case, much obfuscatory embroidery can be added to the basic pattern once understood)…

The Launderer looks for used cars for sale (nothing exotic, probably under $10,000 asking). Let’s say he buys a car from ‘A’. He offers a good price (doesn’t haggle too hard) but is adamant about one aspect – a cash deal. ‘A’ doesn’t object – no chance of getting burned on a cash deal.
‘A’ signs the ‘sales contract’ part of the registration and asks who to put in the ‘Sold To’ field. The Launderer replies. “Just leave that blank; I’ll fill it in later.” Launderer pays A in cash - deal is concluded.
I just sold a used car recently. When I went with the buyer to the government to exchange ownership, they were very thorough and didn't allow anything to be left blank.

In what province are you allowed to do what you're suggesting?
I could see this working in Ontario. It's the buyer that reports the sale / transfer / purchase when he goes to licence the car in his name. The process doesn't require the vendor to have any dealings with the the licence bureau. That has always bothered me, so I usually ask for some ID from the buyer so that, if ## months later I get a licence renewal I have some evidence of no longer owning the car.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by rapporteur »

Dear Flaccidsteele,

When Launderer buys the car from A for cash, A merely signs the back of the registration form (and perhaps puts in his driver's licence # as ID) thereby authorizing the sale from his side - the buyer info can be left blank (to be filled in later - but before registering - by Launderer/B). (A separate bill of sale instead of, or in addition to, the signed back of registration form may be required in some jurisdictions, but this doesn't change the process materially - the buyer part is filled in later, but prior to registering.)

Only the eventual buyer, B, need ever go to a registry office with proof of ownership (i.e., the by-then-completed bill of sale), his ID (driver's licence), and pink card, in order to register the new ownership of the vehicle in his name. At the point when he does this nothing is blank on the bill of sale. The seller, A, does not have to go to the registry with buyer, B. (It may be good practice to do so but many sellers do not.) Needless to say, Launderer usually never appears at the registry office.

In short, only the BUYER of a vehicle must go to the registry with proof of ownership (e.g., a valid bill of sale), personal ID (driver's licence), and pink card to register a vehicle - the seller does not have to go.

Regards,

PS Needless to say, a slick Launderer would easily craft some reason detering the seller from going with him to a registry - perhaps a cock and bull story about how he is going to register it in a different city (or even a different province).
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Flaccidsteele »

rapporteur wrote: 25 Feb 2018 01:05 The seller, A, does not have to go to the registry with buyer, B. (It may be good practice to do so but many sellers do not.) Needless to say, Launderer usually never appears at the registry office.

In short, only the BUYER of a vehicle must go to the registry with proof of ownership (e.g., a valid bill of sale), personal ID (driver's licence), and pink card to register a vehicle - the seller does not have to go.
I understand that the buyer doesn't need to go to the registry office

When I was the seller, why would I (the seller) take the cash but still have the ownership/potential liability of the car tied to me without transferring ownership to someone else?

Doesn't pass the smell test
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by kcowan »

We used to get the buyer to sign a Bill of Sale in which they undertook to transfer the ownership within 30 days of the sale date as required by DMV.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by FinEcon »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 25 Feb 2018 11:40 I understand that the buyer doesn't need to go to the registry office

When I was the seller, why would I (the seller) take the cash but still have the ownership/potential liability of the car tied to me without transferring ownership to someone else?

Doesn't pass the smell test
I won't do it either for the reasons you mention but in (BC) private resale market, it's such a common thing it's laughable. The real reason has absolutely nothing to do with money laundering though it's simply the main mechanism 'curbsiders' or flippers use to avoid taxes, both on the vehicle transfer and the income side. You almost cannot transact a vehicle without the buyer/seller asking you what kind of fib on the form about price, etc. In BC, the sale price and following are now even in bold red print:

I/we the seller(s) certify that we are the registered owner(s) of the described vehicle
and that I/we are entitled to sell it, and that the selling price includes any and all
consideration received for the vehicle and that the information above is true.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by nisser »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 25 Feb 2018 11:40
rapporteur wrote: 25 Feb 2018 01:05 The seller, A, does not have to go to the registry with buyer, B. (It may be good practice to do so but many sellers do not.) Needless to say, Launderer usually never appears at the registry office.

In short, only the BUYER of a vehicle must go to the registry with proof of ownership (e.g., a valid bill of sale), personal ID (driver's licence), and pink card to register a vehicle - the seller does not have to go.
I understand that the buyer doesn't need to go to the registry office

When I was the seller, why would I (the seller) take the cash but still have the ownership/potential liability of the car tied to me without transferring ownership to someone else?

Doesn't pass the smell test
Doesn't the buyer get to keep the bill of sale anyway? It's their proof that the car was transferred legitimately to the buyer.

What difference does it make for you (the seller) if they have a signed copy or not? They can just shred it. Actually as the seller, if I was unscrupulous, would I not want to forego the bill of sale anyway? I get my money, report the car stolen, get more money?
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by adrian2 »

nisser wrote: 25 Feb 2018 13:30 Actually as the seller, if I was unscrupulous, would I not want to forego the bill of sale anyway? I get my money, report the car stolen, get more money?
You forgot to mention the next steps: do not pass GO, go straight to jail for insurance fraud! :P
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by nisser »

We're discussing fraud to begin with. I was merely commenting on the procedure. As the seller, why do I care what the buyer does with his copy of the bill of sale? I've gotten my money, my copy of the bill of sale and I'm good.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by kcowan »

nisser wrote: 25 Feb 2018 15:14I've gotten my money, my copy of the bill of sale and I'm good.
If the unscrupulous buyer is in a accident, the victims will sue the registered vehicle owner. Meanwhile you will have cancelled your insurance. Why would you do this for a stranger?
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by BRIAN5000 »

kcowan wrote: 25 Feb 2018 16:08
nisser wrote: 25 Feb 2018 15:14I've gotten my money, my copy of the bill of sale and I'm good.
If the unscrupulous buyer is in a accident, the victims will sue the registered vehicle owner. Meanwhile you will have cancelled your insurance. Why would you do this for a stranger?
Agree
You should always go to the point of transfer (paperwork) with the intended buyer and not give possession till after transfer and exchange of remuneration, standard practice. You should drive it there once its out of your name he doesn't matter if the buyer has insurance or not to you. I usually have the money, the car and the paperwork in my hands.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Flaccidsteele »

kcowan wrote: 25 Feb 2018 16:08
nisser wrote: 25 Feb 2018 15:14I've gotten my money, my copy of the bill of sale and I'm good.
If the unscrupulous buyer is in a accident, the victims will sue the registered vehicle owner. Meanwhile you will have cancelled your insurance. Why would you do this for a stranger?
That's pretty much it

...or drug bust, or robbery, or hit and run, or if they slap a big lien on the car, or whatever, where you wouldn't want to be the registered vehicle owner after "selling" the car

Nobody wants to be tied up in that kind of mess

JaG's posts seem more realistic

I don't think we're qualified to talk about how to launder money let alone acquire real estate with laundered money
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by rapporteur »

Flaccidsteele said:
I don't think we're qualified to talk about how to launder money let alone acquire real estate with laundered money
Well, you certainly aren't :D - you don't seem to have the devious mind required for the trade.

That's a compliment, not an insult - too honest, as it were. Launderers are specialists in gamesmanship - their straight-world counterpart might be an aggressive tax lawyer. Both think 'outside the box'. To a clever Launderer the law is not sacrosanct, just an exercise in risk management. And good Launderers manage it very well!

I don't think you understand the mentality of the players in low-level car-flipping. Not just Launderer, even A and B. They aren't well-off 60-year-old professionals with prudence, caution, and circumspection in spades. (If Launderer accidentally/incidentally encounters such a person he just blows that trade off and walks away - who needs the hassle?)

But Flaccidsteele also said:
When I was the seller, why would I (the seller) take the cash but still have the ownership/potential liability of the car tied to me without transferring ownership to someone else?
To an ordinary typical 'A' (e.g., tradesman selling off an old pickup for under $10,000) the chief risk is getting burned on the deal economically - obscure speculative future liability issues are not foremost in his mind. If he gets paid in cash his mind is at rest - from his point of view the risk of the deal is now gone (any residual risk is the buyer's problem).

As I said, Launderer will have any number of reasons for not filling in the buyer info at the time of sale (e.g., "I'm buying it for my new girlfriend's birthday in a few days and will register it in her name then. Right now I'm not sure of her middle name or her driver's licence #").

Even someone like you dealing with Launderer can protect yourself when selling a car that may/will not be re-registered immediately. You call your insurance company and cancel the policy, and - here's the kicker - YOU go down the registry office alone and *de-register* the car from your name after the sale! (De-registering a car is not a super-common situation but it's not all that rare either. Maybe you're taking your own car off the road to work on it for a few months/years in your garage and will re-register it later when it's all jazzed up.)

Now registration is itself (very technically) not proof of ownership (although it's a 'beginning of proof in writing' and passes as sufficiently good proof in almost all practical cases). Proof of ownership is required to get (initial) registration, but ownership itself is independent of registration (perhaps the cars are on show in a museum).

In practical matters, however, transfer of registration is equivalent to transfer of ownership despite any legal subtleties to the contrary. How many people (ordinary people, not prudent rich old men) have any paperwork other than registration and pink card to prove ownership of that car they've 'owned' for the last ten years ?

IOW how many ordinary tradesmen selling beaters know/care about such arcana and would walk away from an attractive cash deal with Launderer?

Regards,

PS The laundering games with houses are played at a higher level than car flipping but in many ways are actually easier and more attractive. One of the fundamental axioms of criminality is 'the fewer criminal events the better' (in this case laundering transactions). Transactions per million dollars laundered is way lower with houses. Moreover the tracking of house ownership (beneficial ownership) is extremely loose and the number of players (lawyers, agents, offshore banks, etc.) is higher. Many more walnut shells to shuffle when hiding the pea.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Spudd »

I have sold used cars privately a couple of times in my life and it never occurred to me to go down to the registration office with the buyer. I just filled out the seller section of the ownership and handed it over to the buyer in exchange for the cash. So it could easily happen, I'm sure I'm not alone in this!

On a related note, I heard a story on CBC Radio today where a guy in Mississauga is selling his condo, and will only accept bitcoin as payment. I googled but couldn't find an online version of the article to point you to. But you want to launder money, buy a condo in bitcoin!
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Flaccidsteele »

rapporteur wrote: 26 Feb 2018 14:51 Well, you certainly aren't :D - you don't seem to have the devious mind required for the trade.
I agree. Neither of us seems to have that particular trait (as is the case for everyone posting on this thread)

I'll take your story as heresay and not as evidence of your particular expertise in money laundering. That's a compliment btw, not an insult :D

I would still be interested, however, to see your data showing the money estimated to be laundered by flipping beaters
Spudd wrote: 26 Feb 2018 17:38 On a related note, I heard a story on CBC Radio today where a guy in Mississauga is selling his condo, and will only accept bitcoin as payment. I googled but couldn't find an online version of the article to point you to. But you want to launder money, buy a condo in bitcoin!
I started hearing about this happening in the US as well

Interesting times
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by twa2w »

I think people are making more of the buyer/seller thing. Pretty easy for me to go to a seller of a vehicle, offer him 2500.00 by cheque and 7500 by cash. Tell him it saves me paying tax. Easy to go to registry office with him and transfer it to my name and tell the transfer agent it is cheap because it requires a lot of work.
I can put it in a numbered company name or one of my names. Not to be stereotypical here but Phuc Tran Long can be set up a dozon different ways. Or a single numbered vompany can have a number of registred trade names.
The vehicle can be turned over at a discount quickly gor a nice clean cheque. Once money in hand, cheques written to ' body shop/ mechanic companies' Company operates out of a mail box for two years or so until maybe the provincial government sets out a request for annusl filing. Company simply stops doing anything.
Start over again. This is much over simplified and there are variations including shipping csrs elsewhere.
There is very much a shadow economy which government does not have wherewithal to track.
Big money launderers pay a decent percentage to have their money laundered. So there are folks who professionally launder money.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by rapporteur »

Dear twa2w,

You, I could work with; Flaccidsteele, not so much :D

While most of the big money laundering schemes involve offshore vehicles (endless jurisdictional, translation, procedural, etc. hassles for LEOs - even such deceptively simple aspects as out-of-sync time zones), more pedestrian domestic mechanisms work very well at the $0-10 million level (or even $50 million if well structured).

On an unrelated (ahem!) topic, I remember some time back looking at North American vehicle insurance mechanisms - in some US states it was (is?) possible to self-insure by depositing bonds (typically US Treasuries) rather than paying some insurance company. (Back then they could be bearer bonds!) In fact, one could (then, at least) still keep collecting the interest payments. A New Mexico LLC (perhaps itself owned by a Wyoming LLC or, better, corp) was the preferred ownership/self-insurance-by-bonds entity structure. If well done this was virtually impenetrable. Pink cards were a dead end for investigation! They could seize the $200,000 but that was it.

Seeing a parallel structure in one Canadian jurisdiction, I phoned the Superintendent of Insurance office for Alberta and inquired about self-insuring by posting security, since the Act apparently permitted such an arrangement. I was informed that, although it was theoretically possible under the Act, only the City of Edmonton had ever been authorized to do so, and no extension to any other entity would be contemplated. Damn!

(BTW, big companies typically self-insure through a Bahamas, etc. wholly-owned company while additionally using the high fees as part of transfer-pricing schemes to evade Canadian taxes. In fact, a careful review of transfer-pricing mechanisms used to avoid taxation will be deeply rewarding to those instead (also?) interested in money-laundering.)

For informational purposes only, of course!

Regards,
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Just a Guy »

I fail to see how people compare selling a car for under 10k (which means money isn't even reported) to trying to make a cash purchase in the millions of dollars from within Canada.

Sure there are many ways to launder cash, but try to buy something with cash for more than 10k and see how "easy" it is. Then try 100k, 1M, 10M. It's not as easy as you think, otherwise drug dealers wouldn't be smuggling cash offshore to get it into the system.

I buy a lot of real estate and I can tell you I get scrutinized every time I do a transaction and that's by traceable bank accounts. I can't imagine trying to walk into a bank with 1M in cash and no paper trail.

Has anyone ever watched the show border security? They tell people it's okay to bring in more than 10k as long as you declare it. However, even if you declare it, you need to provide a paper trail to show where it came from or it could be seized. Oh, and if you declare it, you're automatically sent to secondary.

I get the feeling not many people on this forum deal with large sums of money on a regular basis.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by longinvest »

So, what's the current state of the housing market in the hot regions (Vancouver and Toronto) and elsewhere in Canada, now that there are new mortgage rules in place?
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by twa2w »

Just a Guy wrote: 27 Feb 2018 02:07 I fail to see how people compare selling a car for under 10k (which means money isn't even reported) to trying to make a cash purchase in the millions of dollars from within Canada.

Sure there are many ways to launder cash, but try to buy something with cash for more than 10k and see how "easy" it is. Then try 100k, 1M, 10M. It's not as easy as you think, otherwise drug dealers wouldn't be smuggling cash offshore to get it into the system.

I buy a lot of real estate and I can tell you I get scrutinized every time I do a transaction and that's by traceable bank accounts. I can't imagine trying to walk into a bank with 1M in cash and no paper trail.

Has anyone ever watched the show border security? They tell people it's okay to bring in more than 10k as long as you declare it. However, even if you declare it, you need to provide a paper trail to show where it came from or it could be seized. Oh, and if you declare it, you're automatically sent to secondary.

I get the feeling not many people on this forum deal with large sums of money on a regular basis.
The whole idea behind the laundering of money is to turn illicit gains ( often cash) into what appears legitimate sources.
No one takes their cash directly to their lawyer or bank to buy a million dollar house. Its whitewashed first ie placed layered and integrated. Often the real estate is just a step in the process.

I have never had a lawyer question my source of funds. The banks transfer billions of $ in and out and little in the way except superficial questioning source and again no followup.
Even cash at the bank that gets reported is almost never followed up. The banks do have algorithms that check for suspicious patterns ( both cash and transactions) but these are pretty easy to avoid.
I have seen hundreds of thousands of cash deposited with nary a followup. ( single cash deposits in the multiple hundred thousands).
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Insomniac »

longinvest wrote: 27 Feb 2018 09:36 So, what's the current state of the housing market in the hot regions (Vancouver and Toronto) and elsewhere in Canada, now that there are new mortgage rules in place?
Good attempt to get this thread back on topic.

Impact of new mortgage rules? Borrowers look to other, non-traditional lenders:
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by AltaRed »

Most RE Boards seem to be implying more business going to alternative lenders.

In the Okanagan, it is predicted we may see only about a 5% price increase in housing prices, versus 8% otherwise. Of course, that is nothing more than a WAG, but we shall see by the end of 2018. We really need to see prices stall for some time to improve affordability. At least the development industry has geared up to significantly increase supply.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by ghariton »

Insomniac wrote: 27 Feb 2018 14:38 Good attempt to get this thread back on topic.

Impact of new mortgage rules? Borrowers look to other, non-traditional lenders:
Perhaps you've just derailed it again. :wink:

I'll tell my two anecdotes and then go away.

(1) When I first set up my law office, on the third floor of a converted house, a mortgage "broker" occupied most of the second floor. Her main business was to arrange mortgages for borrowers who didn't meet the banks' standards. Where did she get the money, I asked. Who were the lenders? Oh, she replied, most of the lenders were immigrants operating their own small businesses, who for whatever reason didn't trust banks. They would show up in her office with suitcases (literally) of cash. She didn't ask questions (although she should have). I'm not sure how she got the funds into the hands of the borrower, or better, the seller of the house, but she did.

(2) Some years ago I sold a co=op apartment in Montreal. Banks wouldn't issue a mortgage against what, legally were shares of restricted stock, so the buyer couldn't get financing. I took back a mortgage, arranged by her real estate agent. I got monthly checks from the buyer. I didn't ask where the money came from.

I suspect that, as althernative lenders' share of the market grows, so will the opportunities for moey laundering.
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Re: Housing Market 2018

Post by Insomniac »

:) I guess I should have said I don't believe the new mortgage rules will have any effect on the market as buyers will simply look to alternate sources of funding. In order to avoid derailing this topic, I will send a PM to ghariton if I want to find out what the heck moey laundering is.
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