Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
I want to know if people's thoughts are about this. Currently my parents purchased a house and it closed. Upon inspection of the house, the vendors took a matching stainless steel microwave. It clearly states on the real estate contract that this was to be left in the house.
We talked to our realtor and the vendor's realtor. The response from the other realtor was bizarre. He said that the vendors were very rich, moved to a new house and they had donated the microwave and offered us $150 (I felt if the vendors really were rich, they would have just bought us a new microwave). When my parents researched the cost of the microwave, it was $500.
We have regrets about the realtor we chose as she is a very poor negotiator and has not advocated for us who has probably already collected her commission. I was wondering if people had any ideas as to what we could do about this. I feel that the vendor is breeching the contract (for a lousy $500). My ultimate goal is to get the microwave back or to get $500. I don't really mind who comes up with this.
I was contemplating a couple of strategies, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts about this and how much leverage I can exercise with the contract. Unfortunately, we don't have any pictures of the microwave, but the kitchen was recently renovated and the microwave matched the fridge and the oven (which fortunately, they left).
Thanks for your thoughts.
We talked to our realtor and the vendor's realtor. The response from the other realtor was bizarre. He said that the vendors were very rich, moved to a new house and they had donated the microwave and offered us $150 (I felt if the vendors really were rich, they would have just bought us a new microwave). When my parents researched the cost of the microwave, it was $500.
We have regrets about the realtor we chose as she is a very poor negotiator and has not advocated for us who has probably already collected her commission. I was wondering if people had any ideas as to what we could do about this. I feel that the vendor is breeching the contract (for a lousy $500). My ultimate goal is to get the microwave back or to get $500. I don't really mind who comes up with this.
I was contemplating a couple of strategies, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts about this and how much leverage I can exercise with the contract. Unfortunately, we don't have any pictures of the microwave, but the kitchen was recently renovated and the microwave matched the fridge and the oven (which fortunately, they left).
Thanks for your thoughts.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
A new microwave is $500. A used micro is worth less than that, say $200-$400. Take the $150 and move on with your life.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
You could tell both realtors that you are going to file in small claims court. You should win, but decision might be that microwave was used and not worth full value. So maybe they would award you $250. If you are lucky, you might also get costs.
I would insist that your realtor call the sellers realtor again, and if they won't, talk to your realtors owners or manager. They should be working for your parents.
On the other hand, you could take the $150 and consider it a discount on the purchase of a new microwave which will come with a warranty and should last for longer. Might save a lot of hassle. Maybe buy it yourself as a house warming present!
I would insist that your realtor call the sellers realtor again, and if they won't, talk to your realtors owners or manager. They should be working for your parents.
On the other hand, you could take the $150 and consider it a discount on the purchase of a new microwave which will come with a warranty and should last for longer. Might save a lot of hassle. Maybe buy it yourself as a house warming present!
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
BTW, I've bought a new regular size stainless steel microwave for $80, on sale, a year ago.
Here are the regular prices @ Walmart. If you watch for sales, you can get even lower.
Here are the regular prices @ Walmart. If you watch for sales, you can get even lower.
finiki, the Canadian financial wiki
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.” [Richard P. Feynman, Nobel prize winner]
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.” [Richard P. Feynman, Nobel prize winner]
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Thanks for the perspective guys. I had told my parents just to buy the microwave and submit a bill to the other realtor to ask for reimbursement. I agree with you guys. Easier to drop it and move on. Just a bit frustrated that our realtor didn't check this.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
When we bought one of our houses, our realtor overlooked one of the closing conditions and they made good on the shortfall.
OTOH, most real estate contracts only specify that things attached go with the house unless specifically itemized. So an appliance that sits on a counter and is plugged in does not qualify. Stating that all appliances are included would include blenders, toasters, waffle irons, etc.
If the microwave was specifically mentioned, then it must be returned, or a satisfactory replacement provided, in order to close.
OTOH, most real estate contracts only specify that things attached go with the house unless specifically itemized. So an appliance that sits on a counter and is plugged in does not qualify. Stating that all appliances are included would include blenders, toasters, waffle irons, etc.
If the microwave was specifically mentioned, then it must be returned, or a satisfactory replacement provided, in order to close.
For the fun of it...Keith
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Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Yes, of course. And all appliances must be in the same condition they were when the offer was made/accepted (i.e. if they were in working order then they must be in working order at close.) That part is clear.kcowan wrote:If the microwave was specifically mentioned, then it must be returned, or a satisfactory replacement provided, in order to close.
The issue ISTM is how much effort and money are the OP's parents willing to expend in order to get "justice." With only ~$350 at stake (likely much less than 1/1000th of the value of the transaction) it's probably best to chalk this up as tuition at the school of hard knocks and move on. And they'll likely find other, more expensive maintenance and repair issues to deal with. That's quite normal with used real estate.
Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity and prolixity.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Thanks again guys. I agree that justice requires a lot of resources and I'm not sure how much effort I want to use in this matter. We will contact the realtor one more time and try to get this sorted out. My parents now told me that the vendors substituted different window coverings in the kitchen . They took the good coverings and switched them with cheaper ones.
The weird thing is that I actually know who the seller is and worked with him a long time ago and thought he was a pretty good guy. I think I even asked him for a reference letter. I doubt he remembers me.
The weird thing is that I actually know who the seller is and worked with him a long time ago and thought he was a pretty good guy. I think I even asked him for a reference letter. I doubt he remembers me.
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Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
People who are reputedly 'rich" can sometimes be amazingly "cheap" and selfish. Maybe it's a sense of entitlement that sometimes comes to the wealthy. Apparently written agreements mean nothing to these people, so I would look over everything in the house very carefully to see what else they may have pulled off. If it starts to add up your parents can threaten to turn it over to their their lawyer to deal with in "final adjustments" (or has that ship sailed?) But otherwise I agree with the general sentiment - weigh carefully if the amount of money involved is worth the hassle.
PS. At the risk of making stereotypical comments, it's unlikely the "pretty good guy" cared about a microwave or kitchen curtains. Its more likely his spouse who was behind it. But he would still be at fault for not explaining to her that a contract is a contract.
PS. At the risk of making stereotypical comments, it's unlikely the "pretty good guy" cared about a microwave or kitchen curtains. Its more likely his spouse who was behind it. But he would still be at fault for not explaining to her that a contract is a contract.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
So what's the lesson here? Is there an inspection that occurs in the presence of buyers and sellers just before heading to the lawyer/notary to finalize sale?
I've never owned real estate and would like to learn how a buyer should go about protecting himself.
I witnessed a luxury condo I was renting being raided by the old owner before transfer of possession in trully despicable fashion. Light and bathroom fixtures, in wall speakers and even wiring was ripped out or replaced by cheap substitutes.
I've never owned real estate and would like to learn how a buyer should go about protecting himself.
I witnessed a luxury condo I was renting being raided by the old owner before transfer of possession in trully despicable fashion. Light and bathroom fixtures, in wall speakers and even wiring was ripped out or replaced by cheap substitutes.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Perhaps the microwave issue is not the owners fault. Movers are used to moving microwaves as they are not major appliances. In the mayhem of moving day, I can see it getting loaded on the truck without the owner knowing.
I think that it's rare that a real estate transfer goes perfectly and everybody is satisfied.
On one move, we found that the previous owner had gone through the garden, removing all the bulbs.
On another move, I found out that the previous owner had painted around the appliances rather than moving them out of the way. So, when I moved in, I was looking at a white kitchen with rectangular areas in orange where the appliances use to be. The paint had run down the back of the wall in big drips which had to be sanded off. Also, they had a grease fire on the stove and covered the damage with tin foil.
I was helping my patents move and the new owners arrived 3 hours early, blocking our moving truck and generally getting in the way giving tours to their friends and relations.
Lots of stories out there. Just have to shake your head and move on.
I think that it's rare that a real estate transfer goes perfectly and everybody is satisfied.
On one move, we found that the previous owner had gone through the garden, removing all the bulbs.
On another move, I found out that the previous owner had painted around the appliances rather than moving them out of the way. So, when I moved in, I was looking at a white kitchen with rectangular areas in orange where the appliances use to be. The paint had run down the back of the wall in big drips which had to be sanded off. Also, they had a grease fire on the stove and covered the damage with tin foil.
I was helping my patents move and the new owners arrived 3 hours early, blocking our moving truck and generally getting in the way giving tours to their friends and relations.
Lots of stories out there. Just have to shake your head and move on.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
For the benefit of OP, I wanted to relay a story.
We purchased a house from a couple going through a divorce. It was a nasty divorce. (Husband had thought he could reform the beautiful hooker.) Did not work. He left. She was doing tricks in the house. Most prospective buyers were totally turned off.
So we put in a stink bid and it was accepted (5 days before the divorce settlement was due). Naturally we were concerned about the place. So we had an inspection done the day the offer was accepted and another done on closing. The condition included no change. So the inspector tallied up all the extra damages and deducted it from the selling price. They even tore out the exhaust hood in the kitchen. They returned it but damaged so that had to be repaired and charged. I re-installed it.
It was a lot of work but it returned handsome rewards when we sold 2.5 years later for 50% appreciation in the 70s in London ON.
(There is much more to the story but not relevant to this thread.)
We purchased a house from a couple going through a divorce. It was a nasty divorce. (Husband had thought he could reform the beautiful hooker.) Did not work. He left. She was doing tricks in the house. Most prospective buyers were totally turned off.
So we put in a stink bid and it was accepted (5 days before the divorce settlement was due). Naturally we were concerned about the place. So we had an inspection done the day the offer was accepted and another done on closing. The condition included no change. So the inspector tallied up all the extra damages and deducted it from the selling price. They even tore out the exhaust hood in the kitchen. They returned it but damaged so that had to be repaired and charged. I re-installed it.
It was a lot of work but it returned handsome rewards when we sold 2.5 years later for 50% appreciation in the 70s in London ON.
(There is much more to the story but not relevant to this thread.)
For the fun of it...Keith
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Kcowan, insomniac. Thanks for he commiseration. Part of the reason for posting is therapeutic. I appreciate the other tales of woe. Puts everything into perspective.
Wasn't it Socrates that said if everyone took all their troubles and put them in the town square and then divided these troubles equally, everyone would want their own troubles back.
OGG. I tend to agree with your PS.
Wasn't it Socrates that said if everyone took all their troubles and put them in the town square and then divided these troubles equally, everyone would want their own troubles back.
OGG. I tend to agree with your PS.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
As a postscript to the London saga, the place was listed with a second mortgage 2% below market so we acquired it. When closing I noticed the rate was not that rate. Our lawyer had missed it (typo in the listing agreement) and sent us a cheque every month for the difference. It pays to be a nitpicker when it is your money. Keeping more of the money you have is the secret to riches (I am told by rich people)...
For the fun of it...Keith
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Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Well, I can be pretty brutal when someone tries to screw me, this is what I'd do;We have regrets about the realtor we chose as she is a very poor negotiator and has not advocated for us who has probably already collected her commission. I was wondering if people had any ideas as to what we could do about this. I feel that the vendor is breeching the contract (for a lousy $500). My ultimate goal is to get the microwave back or to get $500. I don't really mind who comes up with this.
If the contract says it comes with the microwave, I'd tell the realtor I'm cancelling the purchase of the home for breach of contract.
Like magic, your microwave will appear out of thin air so fast it will make your head spin.
It doesn't sound like it is your realtor who is a poor negotiator, it sounds like as if YOU are a poor negotiator.
There's a business book I read a while back that had a funny quote; "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"
Research until your head hurts then scream Banzai!!! and charge fearlessly to victory or death!
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
I appreciate your bluntness and advice and I agree with you that it would work. I like that saying. Its just trying to convince my parents to pursue that type of negotiation strategy. Its interesting as I guess I could pursue a more aggressive or passive approach.Well, I can be pretty brutal when someone tries to screw me, this is what I'd do;
If the contract says it comes with the microwave, I'd tell the realtor I'm cancelling the purchase of the home for breach of contract.
Like magic, your microwave will appear out of thin air so fast it will make your head spin.
It doesn't sound like it is your realtor who is a poor negotiator, it sounds like as if YOU are a poor negotiator.
There's a business book I read a while back that had a funny quote; "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"
I have already threatened the vendors once because they wanted to extend closing date by a month and at a rate that was significantly less than what was market value. 3 days before closing, we were informed by our lawyer that the vendors hadn't found a lawyer yet and that closing might be delayed. We told our lawyer to draft another offer that was lower by the amount of rent and the inconvenience costs that my parents would incur and the other party magically found a lawyer and we closed on the correct date.
I'll talk to them about this strategy. Again thanks for the input.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
I agree with Mike. If the sale price was $350,000, then the likely commission to be split between the two real estate agents is $17,500. They will not want to lose this for a measly $350. They will cough it up on their own.
Regards,
Pickles
Pickles
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Just one more voice for pushing the "professional realtors" harder. When we purchased our last home, the outgoing "people" left behind so much rubbish and tacky knickknacks that I was forced to borrow one of the moving trucks and use it to make a run to the dump (OT: did I ever get funny looks dumping plaster and marble statues on the heap at the dump.. they left like 10 of the damn things and man they were heavy).
Anyway, the tip fees and gas ran me about $175 and one week of a sore back. I raised a stink with the listing realtor and she was around the next morning with a cheque. It helps when it is a smaller town too (not knowing your geographical situation).
Anyway, the tip fees and gas ran me about $175 and one week of a sore back. I raised a stink with the listing realtor and she was around the next morning with a cheque. It helps when it is a smaller town too (not knowing your geographical situation).
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Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
This is another sign that you had an incompetent relator, but they should've told to include a $1,000 hold back in your agreement. I've done that with both houses I've bought. the $1,000 gets released when I get the keys and walk around the house and check everything.
First house I bought was in the winter, and I had "must remove all trash" clause along with the $1,000 hold back. When the snow melted a couple of months later, to my dismay a kitchen sink (literally) along with some other rubbish showed up under the snow. I was rather annoyed, but luckily I was making a run to dump anyways, and it only cost me a couple of hours and few dollars to get rid of the trash left behind. If I knew where they lived, I honestly would've driven over and left the sink in their driveway.
Second house in a much smaller and higher end community, we met the sellers before closing and the lady said she'll do her best to clean, but we realized she was older and we said don't worry about it as my wife is very picky to begin with. The place needed a good dusting, but nothing major, and they were nice enough to change the filters for the water system for us. When we left our last house, we cleaned top to bottom, left a card along with flowers for the new owners.
It's true that buying and selling is never a smooth transaction, and it's double the stress when doing both at once. We have no plans to move again.
First house I bought was in the winter, and I had "must remove all trash" clause along with the $1,000 hold back. When the snow melted a couple of months later, to my dismay a kitchen sink (literally) along with some other rubbish showed up under the snow. I was rather annoyed, but luckily I was making a run to dump anyways, and it only cost me a couple of hours and few dollars to get rid of the trash left behind. If I knew where they lived, I honestly would've driven over and left the sink in their driveway.
Second house in a much smaller and higher end community, we met the sellers before closing and the lady said she'll do her best to clean, but we realized she was older and we said don't worry about it as my wife is very picky to begin with. The place needed a good dusting, but nothing major, and they were nice enough to change the filters for the water system for us. When we left our last house, we cleaned top to bottom, left a card along with flowers for the new owners.
It's true that buying and selling is never a smooth transaction, and it's double the stress when doing both at once. We have no plans to move again.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
Well, the realtor from the other side coughed up the $500 dollars. Mike and Pickles, thanks for the motivation. It was a bit of a strange thing that happened. We sent our realtor and lawyer an e-mail suggesting that we should return the house after we hadn't heard anything from the sellers and we would invoice them the lawyer fees for reversing the sale.
Interestingly, our realtor did not send out this e-mail and took it upon herself to negotiate with the other realtor's boss. The vendor's realtor had been unwilling to negotiate and refused to return any calls. The other realtor's boss authorized the $500 which we received. I think it did help to send the strong e-mail as I'm pretty sure our realtor told the other company that this was going a bit far even though she refused to send it.
On a side note, now that everything is finished, I learned a couple of things. I could threaten returning the house, however, I was advised by my lawyer that the lack of a microwave was not a fundamental breach that nulls the contract. We were prepared to return the keys as my parents hadn't moved in much stuff. A more realistic threat would have been to say we would take them to small claims and they could either pony up the $500 now or pay $350 for a new microwave and $200 legal costs + a day off work if we went to court/mediation.
I'm glad this is behind us and I certainly learned a lot during this process about aggressive negotiation tactics (i.e. what if the other party disregards the contract).
I think if the other side had looked at the price of the microwave and said they would offer us $350 which would be 70% at the beginning, then we probably would have taken it and moved on.
Thanks everyone for their comments!
Interestingly, our realtor did not send out this e-mail and took it upon herself to negotiate with the other realtor's boss. The vendor's realtor had been unwilling to negotiate and refused to return any calls. The other realtor's boss authorized the $500 which we received. I think it did help to send the strong e-mail as I'm pretty sure our realtor told the other company that this was going a bit far even though she refused to send it.
On a side note, now that everything is finished, I learned a couple of things. I could threaten returning the house, however, I was advised by my lawyer that the lack of a microwave was not a fundamental breach that nulls the contract. We were prepared to return the keys as my parents hadn't moved in much stuff. A more realistic threat would have been to say we would take them to small claims and they could either pony up the $500 now or pay $350 for a new microwave and $200 legal costs + a day off work if we went to court/mediation.
I'm glad this is behind us and I certainly learned a lot during this process about aggressive negotiation tactics (i.e. what if the other party disregards the contract).
I think if the other side had looked at the price of the microwave and said they would offer us $350 which would be 70% at the beginning, then we probably would have taken it and moved on.
Thanks everyone for their comments!
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
I knew someone this happened to, the owner took a dishwasher with them when they left, and the way it was settled was that each of the two realtors kicked in half the cost of replacing the washer.
The only time I've done a game of brinksmanship was moving a mortgage from one institution to another when it came time to sign the new mortgage I noticed that the new bank was not covering the costs of transfer as had been agreed on. The person I made the agreement with was not in the room. When I brought it up, their response was along the lines of: C'mon be reasonable, how could we make a guarantee like that, suppose the other institution had a huge fee? You musta misunderstood, don't worry we'll let it slide. I actually had it in writing on the back of a somewhat cryptic business card from the other person. Everyone could tell what was intended although it might not hold up in court. I dug my heals in and said I would not transfer unless they covered the cost (I think it was about $125). I sat there scared to death that I was going to have to go through a big effort of lining up a mortgage with another institution over a measly $125. The bank was pissed because the mortgage was all drawn up with the pricing not reflecting this money and was going to have to be redone. I won in the end but I'd almost say the stress was not worth $125.
The main thing I learned was: Get it in writing. Luckily I had done that, albeit poorly on the back of the business card. I had felt sheepish asking even for that at the time but a book on mortgages had said to get everything in writing. Not sheepish about that stuff anymore.
The only time I've done a game of brinksmanship was moving a mortgage from one institution to another when it came time to sign the new mortgage I noticed that the new bank was not covering the costs of transfer as had been agreed on. The person I made the agreement with was not in the room. When I brought it up, their response was along the lines of: C'mon be reasonable, how could we make a guarantee like that, suppose the other institution had a huge fee? You musta misunderstood, don't worry we'll let it slide. I actually had it in writing on the back of a somewhat cryptic business card from the other person. Everyone could tell what was intended although it might not hold up in court. I dug my heals in and said I would not transfer unless they covered the cost (I think it was about $125). I sat there scared to death that I was going to have to go through a big effort of lining up a mortgage with another institution over a measly $125. The bank was pissed because the mortgage was all drawn up with the pricing not reflecting this money and was going to have to be redone. I won in the end but I'd almost say the stress was not worth $125.
The main thing I learned was: Get it in writing. Luckily I had done that, albeit poorly on the back of the business card. I had felt sheepish asking even for that at the time but a book on mortgages had said to get everything in writing. Not sheepish about that stuff anymore.
- Bylo Selhi
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Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
That too was a negotiating ploy to stress you out into compliance. If drawing up a revised mortgage was too onerous then they could have easily offered to give you the $125 on the side and let you apply that towards the principal (assuming you had some sort of extra prepayment privilege.) Good for you for holding firm.Mouly wrote:The bank was pissed because the mortgage was all drawn up with the pricing not reflecting this money and was going to have to be redone. I won in the end but I'd almost say the stress was not worth $125.
Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity and prolixity.
Re: Parent's House Purchase vendors took microwave
One last story in a similar vein:
I was in the room with a friend who was selling their house when the two realtors presented an offer that was under asking (this was in the days where you listed your house at the price you actually thought was fair and expected to get). This was first offer in on the house, which had just gone on the market. Both realtors were putting on pressure to accept the bid and my friend looked at me for advice. I said: "You know, there are four people involved in this transaction who can budge and get this deal closed, not just you." The laser dagger stares directed at me were hard to miss even though the frozen smiles.
My friend's agent said: How about this, accept this offer and then when you buy your new house I'll reduce my commission a half percentage.
She accepted this offer. But of course on reflection it was a lousy offer. First off she didn't buy her next house via this agent and even if she had because of the promised reduced commission it just meant the guy was locking in the commission for two sales rather than one.
A bird in the hand....
I was in the room with a friend who was selling their house when the two realtors presented an offer that was under asking (this was in the days where you listed your house at the price you actually thought was fair and expected to get). This was first offer in on the house, which had just gone on the market. Both realtors were putting on pressure to accept the bid and my friend looked at me for advice. I said: "You know, there are four people involved in this transaction who can budge and get this deal closed, not just you." The laser dagger stares directed at me were hard to miss even though the frozen smiles.
My friend's agent said: How about this, accept this offer and then when you buy your new house I'll reduce my commission a half percentage.
She accepted this offer. But of course on reflection it was a lousy offer. First off she didn't buy her next house via this agent and even if she had because of the promised reduced commission it just meant the guy was locking in the commission for two sales rather than one.
A bird in the hand....