A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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HardWorker
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A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by HardWorker »

So I've been mortgage free for a few weeks now, and every day I check the mail for a letter from my ex-lender. No, not the mortgage discharge letter, which is almost worded like a collection letter, but a "congrats and thank you" letter. When I used to make prepayments, they'd send me a confirmation letter thanking me for the payment and told me the amount left. When I made the final payment, I got absolutely nothing, as if they're sour with me. I wasn't expecting a marching band down the street, or balloons falling from the sky, but I mean c'mon, just a nice letter. I know I'm being a baby about this, but damn this was a bit of a let down, just like when I found out mortgage payments don't get reported on your credit (unless you miss them). I'd deal with these guys again if I ever need to, but I'll stipulate they must send me a card at a minimum next time :rofl:
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by abose »

Similar story here. We paid out our mortgage in March, one month before the end of our current 5-year term. I was told we'd have to come into our local branch in person to sign the paperwork. We made an appointment but when we got to the bank, they told us actually the mortgage was with another branch so they couldn't complete the discharge process that day. Turns out we didn't need to sign anything after all.

They promised they'd complete the paperwork and forward us a discharge notice by mail. A couple weeks later a notice arrived but it looked just like a regular mortgage statement. It said nothing was owing currently on the mortgage, but nowhere did it say clearly that the mortgage had actually been discharged. I assumed you got a certificate and/or a formal letter of some kind. A thanks and "hope we can do business again soon" sort of letter would generate a lot of good will, but so far zip.

The woman we dealt with at the bank (TD) said we were her first discharge. She had worked there for over 5 years. She seemed a little confused about the process and had trouble answering some of our questions about the discharge process. This made me a little nervous. Nearly three months later, our mortgage is still showing up with our online accounts. The balance shows zero but I don't see why the mortgage is still showing up at all online. I am also curious if the bank took action to take itself off title with the land registry office. I was told verbally that they do so automatically but now I wonder if they have. I guess I'll have to do a title search to find out? Perhaps I need to involved the lawyer who completed the original purchase?

Anyone out there have advice on what steps, if any, to take to ensure your financial institution has done due diligence in completing a mortgage discharge?
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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abose wrote:Similar story here.
Yours sounds a little worse actually. I just called the lender (FirstLine Morrgages) and they confirmed the last payment, and all of the 75 cents penalty :D. My online account showed 0 owing rightaway, and two days later it said my account was closed. A week later I got the discharge letter, which on the top in bold letters said this is a dicharge letter but all amounts owing must be paid immediately or interest will be charged, etc. My discharge fee was $320 which included $72 for electronic filing with the land registry. I was told it takes about 30 business days, so I should be getting that any day now.

BTW, in case you didn't know, most insurance companies will give you a discount if you're mortgage free. I emailed a copy to my insurer, and they retroactively applied the discount from the day the mortgage was paid.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by brucecohen »

FWIW, the lender has no reason to thank you for paying off your mortgage. Early discharge cuts off the lender's income from the loan, and today they likely have to re-loan that money at rates well below what you were paying.

Many years ago I advised execs from several big banks to send out congratulatory letters when homeowners were within sight of burning the mortgage and, in that letter, suggest that they keep making a monthly payment but to an RRSP, RESP or other investment account. AFAIK none took my advice, probably because in those days banks segregated their various activities in product silos and one department had little or no reason to help another.

BTW, when I paid off my first and only home mortgage circa 1982, the old-school branch manager -- who'd been there for 25 years -- shook my hand but I got no kudos from head office.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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brucecohen wrote:Many years ago I advised execs from several big banks to send out congratulatory letters when homeowners were within sight of burning the mortgage and, in that letter, suggest that they keep making a monthly payment but to an RRSP, RESP or other investment account. AFAIK none took my advice, probably because in those days banks segregated their various activities in product silos and one department had little or no reason to help another.
Or the 'opportunity' to get a HELOC or remortgage. They're missing some sales here.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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abose wrote:Anyone out there have advice on what steps, if any, to take to ensure your financial institution has done due diligence in completing a mortgage discharge?
I paid off my mortgage with TD in Sept 2002. Below is the timeline, if it's any help.

Aug 1, 2002 - Received Mortgage Renewal forms in mail.
Aug 8, 2002 - Went to bank and asked for and received Mortgage Discharge statement that was valid for 30 days.
The next week - Advised bank by email to pay off mortgage from chequing account.
Sept 3, 3002 - Money removed to pay off mortgage.
Oct 2002 - Mortgage online EasyWeb showing balance of zero.
Nov 26, 2002 - Single page Release of Interest letter received in mail informing me that they were pleased to confirm the discharge of the mortgage and that it had been registered at the Lands Titles Registry office on Oct 8 under number xxx and that I should pass a copy of the letter to my insurance company.
Dec 2002 - Mortgage entry removed from Easy Web online.

ltr
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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NormR wrote:
brucecohen wrote:Many years ago I advised execs from several big banks to send out congratulatory letters when homeowners were within sight of burning the mortgage and, in that letter, suggest that they keep making a monthly payment but to an RRSP, RESP or other investment account. AFAIK none took my advice, probably because in those days banks segregated their various activities in product silos and one department had little or no reason to help another.
Or the 'opportunity' to get a HELOC or remortgage. They're missing some sales here.

Exactly. In my case, the lender was decent to deal with, and rates were very competitive. They should have sent just a plain letter saying they take pride in offering good service at great rates, to enable home owners save money and be mortgage free quicker. It would have cost them less than a dollar. Even if they don't offer other products, they could have ended the letter saying they look forward to more business in the future, and please tell family and friends.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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brucecohen wrote:FWIW, the lender has no reason to thank you for paying off your mortgage. Early discharge cuts off the lender's income from the loan, and today they likely have to re-loan that money at rates well below what you were paying.
It took me 5 years, 11 months to pay off the loan. The first 5 years it was prime - 0.85%. At some point I was paying 1.4%. When the 5 years were up, I renewed at 3.45% locked in, with much less than 50K. I know they were very happy to get rid of my first term, and I don't think they made too much off the second vs what's offered by other lenders currently.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by ghariton »

It's important to get an official discharge of your mortgage, so that you can register it with your local land titles office. If you ever want to sell, the lawyer for the other side will have a search done, and if a mortgage without a discharge shows up, that can cause problems.

George
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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ghariton wrote:It's important to get an official discharge of your mortgage, so that you can register it with your local land titles office. If you ever want to sell, the lawyer for the other side will have a search done, and if a mortgage without a discharge shows up, that can cause problems.

George

So once I receive the second paper I'm waiting on (de-registration of the mortgage at the titles office), do I still have to go the land registry office? Do I need a lawyer at all? From what I understood, they charged me the fee to electronically do the work with the land office.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by Pickles »

When I paid off my first mortgage, I registered the discharge letter from BMO at Land Titles myself. BMO now handles registration of mortgage discharges at Land Titles and charges the client a fee. They told me that it simplified things for their customers and avoided unnecessary hassles for the bank. This approach is being adopted by many lenders. If you've been charged for registration , Hardworker, you should receive the paperwork confirming the discharge has been placed on title soon. In that case, you won't have to go to the Land Titles office yourself.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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like_to_retire wrote: Oct 2002 - Mortgage online EasyWeb showing balance of zero.
Nov 26, 2002 - Single page Release of Interest letter received in mail informing me that they were pleased to confirm the discharge of the mortgage and that it had been registered at the Lands Titles Registry office on Oct 8 under number xxx and that I should pass a copy of the letter to my insurance company.
Dec 2002 - Mortgage entry removed from Easy Web online.
ltr

Thanks LTR. In your timeline, I'm in between Oct/Nov. I'll contact TD and prompt them again. Sounds like I should be receiving a letter confirming the change in registration by now.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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Pickles wrote:When I paid off my first mortgage, I registered the discharge letter from BMO at Land Titles myself. BMO now handles registration of mortgage discharges at Land Titles and charges the client a fee. They told me that it simplified things for their customers and avoided unnecessary hassles for the bank. This approach is being adopted by many lenders. If you've been charged for registration , Hardworker, you should receive the paperwork confirming the discharge has been placed on title soon. In that case, you won't have to go to the Land Titles office yourself.

Good to hear. Thanks.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by knotley »

Paid off mortgage a few years ago. But kept HELOC on. I was told (by TD) that because of mortgage fraud, it was cheaper (free) to keep HELOC on than to get insurance (title insurance?) against fraud. It made sense at the time, but that was the bank advising me, so I was suspicious. But I have had no problems.

But I think Ontario has tightened up the laws since then as there were many media mortgage fraud cases in the news.

I also use the HELOC as my sole bank account. Paycheque deposited and cheques written. No fees other than a few cents per month - I transfer funds at the end of the month to keep balance a few dollars above or below zero. I don't want TD to catch on to the no fee chequing account (HELOC) that I have!
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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How does a HELOC prevent fraud?

I'd have to dig it up, but I think the title insurance cost me $200, and it's money well spent.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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Since a HELOC is a secured loan, the lender is registered in first position and may have title insurance to protect their interest in the property (not your interest however). IMNAL but I understand also, legally, the lender is expected to exercise due diligence and only lend to a duly registered owner.

Being in the shadow of the lender offers you SOME protection against someone stealing your home out from under you by fraud. However, there's a limit to that protection. Some folks recommend title insurance as better protection, depending on what part of Canada you own property. See this earlier thread for more info and an illuminating discussion.
http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/for ... =34&t=1164
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by brucecohen »

ISTM a fraudster would do a title search and see the HELOC. If the criminal is clever enough to steal the house out from under you, wouldn't he be clever enough to kill the HELOC? (Note: IIRC, most if not all of Ontario's mortgage fraud cases have involved crooked lawyers and/or bankers.)
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by knotley »

abose wrote:Since a HELOC is a secured loan, the lender is registered in first position and may have title insurance to protect their interest in the property (not your interest however). IMNAL but I understand also, legally, the lender is expected to exercise due diligence and only lend to a duly registered owner.

Being in the shadow of the lender offers you SOME protection against someone stealing your home out from under you by fraud. However, there's a limit to that protection. Some folks recommend title insurance as better protection, depending on what part of Canada you own property. See this earlier thread for more info and an illuminating discussion.
http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/for ... =34&t=1164
Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I had forgotten asking similar questions then.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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Just a quick update to say that 3-months after paying off our mortgage, I finally received a letter from the lender (TD) confirming that our mortgage is now paid in full. In part, the letter states:

"We appreciate your business and we're happy to be able to share good news with you... we have received the funds to pay your Mortgage in full, and I'm pleased to enclose a registered Discharge of Mortgage/Cessation of Charge, along with the Duplicate Registered Change of Land. Please forward a copy of this letter to your insurance company for their records as it represents the release of interest of the Toronto-Dominion Bank in your property... Now that your Mortgage has been paid out and discharged, it's a perfect time to set up an appointment for a TD personal assessment and consider the options available to you based on your changing needs. Your business continues to be important to us. If we can be of assistance in the future or if you'd like information about any of our other services..." Signed by the Vice President of Credit Admin Services, TD bank.

Well done TD! Apart from the 3-month delay and lack of explanation about the delay, I'm pretty satisfied overall with my experience and would be happy to consider dealing with the lender again in the future, especially since they waived the entire $90 discharge fee up front :thumbsup:
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by HardWorker »

Hmmm, maybe TD reps are on this forum :D. And your discharge fee was only $90? Are you sure that's not the land registry portion?
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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HardWorker wrote:your discharge fee was only $90? Are you sure that's not the land registry portion?
I was told the fee was $90 but they waived it after I started asking questions about setting up a HELOC. I was expecting it to be a couple hundred dollars but in the end they charged me nothing. I suspect the fees vary by province or region, depending on the hard costs of legal/registry transactions.

I don't work for TD or any other financial institution but I am a shareholder :) . I only started banking with them when I secured a mortgage through a broker. Since then I've been very happy with their customer service at my local branch. YMMV.

My only complaint(s) had to do with the confusion surrounding the mortgage discharge process, which took much longer than expected. They didn't do a good job of explaining the process and timeline. Apparently, when it comes to mortgages you have to speak directly to the branch that holds the mortgage to get any specific information. Since we arranged the mortgage through a broker, it ended up being with a branch I've never stepped foot in and that's where the breakdown in communication started.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by pmj »

ISTR that the discharge fee is written somewhere in the mortgage documents - and thus its size might depend on how old the mortgage was?
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by HardWorker »

pmj wrote:ISTR that the discharge fee is written somewhere in the mortgage documents - and thus its size might depend on how old the mortgage was?

No it's a set amount. Here in Ontario it seems to be the range of $250 - $400. Mine was $320, including the electronic registration. $90 is pretty good, and free is even better.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

Post by averismurrieta »

The letters you received prior to your complete payment were intended to let you feel good so as to motivate you to make your payments. Some lenders do send thank you letters for completion of payments though.
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Re: A little disappointed in my ex-lender

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ghariton wrote:It's important to get an official discharge of your mortgage, so that you can register it with your local land titles office. If you ever want to sell, the lawyer for the other side will have a search done, and if a mortgage without a discharge shows up, that can cause problems.

George
Hmmm. That's us.
More than a decade ago we paid off our mortgage with CIBC - but then they wanted an extra payment for the discharge letter. My reaction was - "I'm not paying - too much $ for a form letter - why should I - you have already made considerable money from our mortgage." -

George, you are right - somebody sometime in the future will have to deal with it. :roll:
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