Vanguard Launch of Balanced Asset Allocation ETFs

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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by longinvest »

ghariton wrote: 03 Feb 2018 01:03 It's not the lack of math skills, it's the emotions.
Right! There's the emotional part of rebalancing, too.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by scomac »

Shakespeare wrote: 03 Feb 2018 02:20 Well, I'm running an integrated portfolio across 3 separate accounts making extra money by trading large-cap Canadian stocks around a central position.

If I get hit by a stroke, there is no way in hell my POA guardian can do that.
This is something that we all struggle with or should at least as we get older. The value of simplification cannot be overstated and IMO is worth several basis points in management fees for peace of mind if nothing else.

I have been slowly working towards this myself over the last two to three years and will continue to do so for probably the next decade to get things converted in a reasonably efficient manner. That said, I think Shakes is correct in that an integrated portfolio over three accounts, even if it just consisted of ETFs, a GIC ladder and an HISA would seem impossibly complex to the uninitiated, let alone a portfolio that contains individual stocks and bonds in multiple currencies. Fortunately my son is running his own RRSP using TD efunds, so he should be able to handle the ETF based model as he is well versed in investing basics.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by longinvest »

Shakespeare wrote: 03 Feb 2018 02:20 Well, I'm running an integrated portfolio across 3 separate accounts making extra money by trading large-cap Canadian stocks around a central position.

If I get hit by a stroke, there is no way in hell my POA guardian can do that.
My wife has no trouble running her portfolio which is spread across 4 accounts (LIRA, RRSP, TFSA, non-registered) using the spreadsheet I built for her.

She's technically able to do all the calculations with only a sheet of paper and a calculator, without a computer, too. I've got her to try that, once, but she needed hand holding to do it. I'm not confident she would be able to do it alone without me on her side, unless I spent a lot of time teaching her about it. She's just not interested enough. With the spreadsheet, she can do her transactions in less than 10 minutes. That's about how long we can discuss financial stuff before she gets bored (or "too bored", I should say, because I'm sure she's bored from the start).

I told her, yesterday, about these new Vanguard balanced index ETFs. But, she said that she's not interested now that she's learned to use the spreadsheet. She prefers our 50/50 Stocks/Bonds or, more precisely, 25/25/25/25 Canadian Stocks/International Stocks/Nominal Bonds/Real-Return Bonds allocation.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by longinvest »

It's interesting that ever since I've adopted my two-step rebalancing method, with my equal 4-assets portfolio, emotions have completely disappeared. My wife feels no emotions (except boredom, maybe) following her spreadsheet's instructions.

The idea of two-step rebalancing is to have a predetermined rebalancing schedule involving two steps spread more than 31 days apart (sidestepping superficial loss concerns). One one step, one sells the excess of each asset above its target allocation. On the other step, one uses all available cash to buy assets below their target allocation.

Because of the long period between sell and buy transactions, one doesn't have the impression to sell a winner to buy a loser. One only has the impression to sell the excess of an overly priced asset, when selling, and the impression to buy an asset on rebate, when buying. At least, this is how it feels to me*. Letting the small amounts sit in cash for a few weeks allows for assets to continue fluctuating. It can even sometimes lead to buying bask the same asset that was sold, but at a lower price.

* Only when I sit and reflect about it. I feel nothing when doing a transaction, as it's a pretty mechanical process of typing bid/ask prices into the spreadsheet and then submitting the spreadsheet's recommended transaction using the broker's transaction screen.
Last edited by longinvest on 03 Feb 2018 09:31, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Shakespeare »

My wife has no trouble running her portfolio which is spread across 4 accounts (LIRA, RRSP, TFSA, non-registered) using the spreadsheet I built for her.
Your wife isn't running a portfolio with 25 securities (some in two different accounts) including Canadian stocks, RRBs, two GIC ladders, and some ETFs, plus cash spread across several accounts.

P.S. Every one of us is one minute away from being a vegetable due to a stroke.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by longinvest »

Shakespeare wrote: 03 Feb 2018 08:56 Your wife isn't running a portfolio with 25 securities (some in two different accounts) including Canadian stocks, RRBs, two GIC ladders, and some ETFs, plus cash spread across several accounts.

P.S. Every one of us is one minute away from being a vegetable due to a stroke.
I didn't say that our arrangement fits everybody. I was just trying to say that some (well-chosen) POA guardians could be able to manage simple-enough portfolios. But, let me be clear, here. I definitely think that Vanguard's new offering is awesome and that a one-ETF portfolio is much simpler than a 3 or 4-ETF (or more complex) portfolio for a POA guardian. Or, viewed another way: it's much harder for the POA guardian to get things wrong with a one-ETF portfolio. (Yet, I'm sure some people would succeed at getting things wrong, even then).
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Shakespeare wrote: 03 Feb 2018 08:56
My wife has no trouble running her portfolio which is spread across 4 accounts (LIRA, RRSP, TFSA, non-registered) using the spreadsheet I built for her.
Your wife isn't running a portfolio with 25 securities (some in two different accounts) including Canadian stocks, RRBs, two GIC ladders, and some ETFs, plus cash spread across several accounts.
But I think that's the point of Vanguard's new offerings. Not many people should be structuring their portfolio in this manner. We are the few amongst the many. I'm guilty as charged here as well, 30-35 individual stocks, plus a couple of broad-based ETFs to cover international, and a 10 year bond ladder combined some some preferred shares. Over time it will definitely need to be simplified, but I still enjoy spending the time and energy to manage it, reading financial reports and updating analysis tools and spreadsheets. That is what has worked for me and I definitely wouldn't council someone to follow this path. If I were starting over I wouldn't follow it either. As a buy and hold investor I've become a bit trapped by the embedded capital gains so am working on a multi-year plan towards simplification. Sounds like scomac is a few years ahead on this front.

In another case I did get a change to start over. I'm also helping to manage the portfolios of my two adult children. With what I've learned on this forum and the fact I was starting from scratch, the design of their portfolios is much simpler. Their portfolios are setup as Simple index portfolios using a combination of TD e-series funds and Vanguard ETFs. Their portfolio requires very little ongoing time and effort to manage them. When new cash is available, use the new cash to rebalance to the most underweight asset class and your done. Like longinvest, this is simple effort to plug a few numbers into a spreadsheet and then follow what it spits out. The new Vanguard ETFs are essentially the the portfolio manager effort that I (or my children) are currently doing based on what I've read about them so far.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Irwin »

Couldn't find this info at MorningStar or elsewhere, so put some fresh cocoanut oil on my sliding ruler and came up with the following close-to-accurate allocations for VBAL (all seven ETF components combined).

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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by gouthro »

Tqhis new offering looks useful to me as well, for the reasons mentionned above. I am a captive of capital gains,too, but that is a nice problem to have. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to slowly chip away at those capital gains over the years. Of course in an rrsp or rriff there is no problem. Two questions not answered here arose. One is whether it would be possible to buy the US version in an rrsp. I would like to havea certain amount of my portfolio unhedged and in US dollars. The second question is whether it might be better to transfer some assets to Questrade, as they do not charge for buying etf's. As Sheakespeare mentionned some of our accounts are complicated and some positions cannot, or at least should not, be sold right away. Therefore one might be making numerous purchases over a period of time. With bmo, for instance, that would be $10 each time. Not that much. But if repeated why not do it at Questrade?
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Quebec wrote: 01 Feb 2018 19:13
Shakespeare wrote: 01 Feb 2018 17:33 Time to update simple index portfolios on finiki.
I was gonna give the new ETFs a few months to gather assets and trading volume.
These have probably generated enough buzz to at least mention them in the wiki article. I have made the following changes to the wiki article on Simple index portfolios. As assets are gathered and trading volumes established, the overall placement of these funds in the wiki article should be revisited.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by AltaRed »

Gouthro, On the premise of what Shakes said, that many of us could become a vegetable in the next 60 seconds, I want my accounts at an institution that could provide some handholding to a POA to figure out what to do. On that basis, I would never wander from a big bank brokerage like BMOIL, ITrade, etc. And it will always be in the same place as my bank accounts for ease of operation by my POA.

The minor savings in operational costs with, for example, Questrade is not a consideration for me. A lot of us getting long in the tooth are understanding how important simplicity is getting to be.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by adrian2 »

gouthro wrote: 03 Feb 2018 11:45 Two questions not answered here arose. One is whether it would be possible to buy the US version in an rrsp. I would like to havea certain amount of my portfolio unhedged and in US dollars. The second question is whether it might be better to transfer some assets to Questrade, as they do not charge for buying etf's. As Sheakespeare mentionned some of our accounts are complicated and some positions cannot, or at least should not, be sold right away. Therefore one might be making numerous purchases over a period of time. With bmo, for instance, that would be $10 each time. Not that much. But if repeated why not do it at Questrade?
G
For the first question, AFAIK all Vanguard Canada ETF's trade in CAD. In any case, the underlying investments are the same, so it does not matter the listing currency of the ETF, all that matters is what stocks you indirectly own. To repeat an older analogy I've used: are you taller in feet+inches, or in cm? The currency is just a measuring stick.

For the second question, if you already have a Questrade account open, by all means use it. Personally, although I'm very much a penny-pincher, I would not open another account for the above reason. I'm not normally placing trades for less than $10k, so commissions are immaterial to me.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by ghariton »

I can see that these new products might be very useful.

But they are not for me. I refuse to hold any nominal bonds. I do hold some nominal fixed income in the form of TD money market funds (I have to own the TD USD money market fund), but that is for cash equivalents, i.e. money to be used within 6 months.

I rebalance every four years or when my fixed income category gets far enough out of whack that I start feeling uncomfortable. My core holdings consist of three ETFs and a bond ladder, which I basically leave untouched for years. I think that my POA can handle that. (My instructions: Add or subtract money as available or needed from the equities, proportionally to the three ETFs. Here's a pocket calculator to figure out the percentages and amounts. Tap the fixed income only once you have run out of money in the equities.)

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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

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Thanks for the reply Adrian. The added complexity with Questrade has been bothering me and so i appreciate your views on it.

Tegarding the inches versus centimeters point. I am aware that the underlying stocks would be the same, whether US or Canada. what i was referring to was more a question of currencies. My understanding at least, is that if you buy the fund in cdn dollars and it goes up you will profit from the undelying stocks in the same way in cdn dollars as you would in american. But, if the US dollar raises in relation to the cdn dollar, you will not benefit from that move, if you invest with cdn dollars. I would like to have the added diversification that the US dollar can give. Perhaps i am missing something here because you are usually right.

Regarding the availibility of the US version, i checked on bmo and at least there they don't seem to beavailable to us.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by AltaRed »

scomac wrote: 03 Feb 2018 08:24 I have been slowly working towards this myself over the last two to three years and will continue to do so for probably the next decade to get things converted in a reasonably efficient manner. That said, I think Shakes is correct in that an integrated portfolio over three accounts, even if it just consisted of ETFs, a GIC ladder and an HISA would seem impossibly complex to the uninitiated, let alone a portfolio that contains individual stocks and bonds in multiple currencies. Fortunately my son is running his own RRSP using TD efunds, so he should be able to handle the ETF based model as he is well versed in investing basics.
As have I but have not made much progress for the bulk of my assets (in non-reg) due to unrealized cap gains. I keep waiting for that 20% plus bear to do more but it has not come out of hibernation yet. I think I am just going to have to clench teeth and accelerate it.

That said, my sons are my POAs and they are bankers with their own brokerage accounts, so as long as I keep my accounts consolidated in 1-2 institutions, this should help. My RRSP is a simple FI ladder, and my TFSA is MAW104, so that is also helpful. I can see the 60/40 Vanguard ETF being a replacement for MAW104 once it gets some traction and AUM supporting it.

The bigger decision is with my (2nd) wife's accounts. She has negative interest in her accounts so they need to be simple should I pass first. Her backup POA is bright but not a DIY investor. The new Vanguard ETFs seem to be a ready made solution for her.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Irwin »

Regarding the availibility of the US version
iShares has a similar product to Vanguard balanced ETFs, in USD but no Canadian content.

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From here: https://www.ishares.com/us/literature/p ... -en-us.pdf

Performance chart - right click slider bar to select a time frame.
http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf. ... or,aom,aok
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Shakespeare »

Sent to Vanguard:
Sir:

I am very interested in your new asset allocation ETFs. You can follow the discussion on the "Financial Wisdom Forum", where I post as "Shakespeare", in http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/for ... 21#p608621 . However, one thing missing from your site is a White Paper giving back-testing results on how you obtained the asset allocations. Is such a paper in the works, and, if so, when will it be available?


Sincerely,
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

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gouthro wrote: 03 Feb 2018 14:26 Thanks for the reply Adrian. The added complexity with Questrade has been bothering me and so i appreciate your views on it.

Tegarding the inches versus centimeters point. I am aware that the underlying stocks would be the same, whether US or Canada. what i was referring to was more a question of currencies. My understanding at least, is that if you buy the fund in cdn dollars and it goes up you will profit from the undelying stocks in the same way in cdn dollars as you would in american. But, if the US dollar raises in relation to the cdn dollar, you will not benefit from that move, if you invest with cdn dollars. I would like to have the added diversification that the US dollar can give. Perhaps i am missing something here because you are usually right.

Regarding the availibility of the US version, i checked on bmo and at least there they don't seem to beavailable to us.
G
This is only true (the lack of return from the US dollar fluctuations) if you buy a hedged version of a CAD ETF. If you buy unhedged (the majority) then you will reap the rewards (or the opposite) of any US dollar fluctuations.

If you go to Google Finance and chart XSP (Blackrock's hedged S&P 500 ETF) vs XUS (Blackrock unhedged S&P 500 ETF) you'll see the difference.
https://finance.google.ca/finance?q=TSE ... 2AaG_pKABQ
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by adrian2 »

gouthro wrote: 03 Feb 2018 14:26 Tegarding the inches versus centimeters point. I am aware that the underlying stocks would be the same, whether US or Canada. what i was referring to was more a question of currencies. My understanding at least, is that if you buy the fund in cdn dollars and it goes up you will profit from the undelying stocks in the same way in cdn dollars as you would in american. But, if the US dollar raises in relation to the cdn dollar, you will not benefit from that move, if you invest with cdn dollars. I would like to have the added diversification that the US dollar can give. Perhaps i am missing something here because you are usually right.
To add to Spudd's answer: say you want to acquire a bar of gold as an investment. Would the investment result be different if you buy the gold with CAD or USD or South African rand (and on your account statement you see the current gold value in the currency you purchased it in)?

Alternatively, if you buy a house with Euros, will it perform better/worse/same compared to an identical next door house a friend of yours purchased with CAD?
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Quebec »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: 03 Feb 2018 13:53 These have probably generated enough buzz to at least mention them in the wiki article. I have made the following changes to the wiki article on Simple index portfolios.
OK, I've updated the One-fund portfolios portion of "Portfolio design and construction" with the same content.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by gouthro »

adrian2 wrote: 03 Feb 2018 15:50
gouthro wrote: 03 Feb 2018 14:26 Tegarding the inches versus centimeters point. I am aware that the underlying stocks would be the same, whether US or Canada. what i was referring to was more a question of currencies. My understanding at least, is that if you buy the fund in cdn dollars and it goes up you will profit from the undelying stocks in the same way in cdn dollars as you would in american. But, if the US dollar raises in relation to the cdn dollar, you will not benefit from that move, if you invest with cdn dollars. I would like to have the added diversification that the US dollar can give. Perhaps i am missing something here because you are usually right.
To add to Spudd's answer: say you want to acquire a bar of gold as an investment. Would the investment result be different if you buy the gold with CAD or USD or South African rand (and on your account statement you see the current gold value in the currency you purchased it in)?

Alternatively, if you buy a house with Euros, will it perform better/worse/same compared to an identical next door house a friend of yours purchased with CAD?
This may be true with a house but currency, I think, is a different matter. I have never bought Canadian eft's and didn't know, as Spudd says, that most of them are unhedged. I assumed that all of them would be hedged. I didn't know much about hedging either but thanks to the two of you I have looked into it and am now i hope a little clearer. I don't want to derail this thread by my confusion on currency hedging but I do thank you very much for taking the time to clarify the question for me.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by AltaRed »

Tip: if the name includes the word 'hedged' or 'CAD hedged' then they are hedged. Otherwise, they are almost certainly not hedged. The bulk of Cdn domiciled ETFs are not hedged.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by gouthro »

Thanks very much for the many tips. As a result I will not be moving anything to Questrade. Also, I retract my earlier post. Currency buying is the same as buying a house, as long as it is unhedged. Perhaps I finally understand it. it is like the differnce between inches and centimeters!
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

As might be expected these funds have been reviewed on the Canadian Couch Potato blog. The link is Vanguard’s One-Fund Solution

Some interest caveats are covered in the "Not so fast" section that are worth reading and considering depending on your circumstances.
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Re: Norbert, your wish has been granted [Vanguard launching cheap balanced index ETFs]

Post by Shakespeare »

Converted 11% of the total portfolio to VBAL to start the simplification procedure.

Note that at RBCDI MAW104 and Steadyhand funds are not available.
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