XIC vs VCN...time to change?
- strathglass
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XIC vs VCN...time to change?
I was considering changing from XIC to VCN. That was before the latest fee reduction last year from iShares (management fee reduced to 0.05%, matching Vanguard's fee for VCN).
However even with this fee reduction, according to TD DI information (Morningstar data, I believe), the MERs are as follows:
VCN MER: 0.13%
XIC MER: 0.27%
The difference, while small, does not seem insignificant (I've got over 100k in XIC currently).
So the question is - is it a good decision to move from XIC to VCN? Looking for data to help support (or not!) such a move.
However even with this fee reduction, according to TD DI information (Morningstar data, I believe), the MERs are as follows:
VCN MER: 0.13%
XIC MER: 0.27%
The difference, while small, does not seem insignificant (I've got over 100k in XIC currently).
So the question is - is it a good decision to move from XIC to VCN? Looking for data to help support (or not!) such a move.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Holding it in a registered or non registered account ?
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
TD DI data on XIC is out of date. XIC management fee is 0.05%. Add HST and a few misc expenses on top. The expected MER comes to 0.06% - 0.07%. You won't see this number in the 2014 report because fee reduction happened in the spring.
XIC is cheaper than VCN but the difference is quite small. VCN may be worth paying a bit extra, if you expect that Vanguard will treat you better than iShares.
XIC is cheaper than VCN but the difference is quite small. VCN may be worth paying a bit extra, if you expect that Vanguard will treat you better than iShares.
- strathglass
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Should have mentioned ... this is for an RRSP.
As to the MER data, that is the data as of November 30th, so I think it should be good - it does note that in addition to the 0.27% MER, the management fee is 0.05% (but maybe that MER figure does not catch the full effect of the fee reduction yet?)
As to the MER data, that is the data as of November 30th, so I think it should be good - it does note that in addition to the 0.27% MER, the management fee is 0.05% (but maybe that MER figure does not catch the full effect of the fee reduction yet?)
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Just because it says "data as of November 30th" doesn't mean that it's good. They are likely quoting MER from the last annual or semi-annual report. Either way, it wouldn't reflect the new management fee.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
I was trying to see if I could see the MER info on cedar, but could not find it. Where can I find out the current MER data?
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
I would look directly at the providers websites for the information.strathglass wrote:Where can I find out the current MER data?
iShares Core S&P/TSX Capped Composite Index ETF | XIC
If you want to get extra picky, read the Prospectus.Management Fee
0.05%
FTSE Canada All Cap Index ETF- Overview | VCN
however reading the fine printManagement fee 0.05%
Again, if you want to read the Prospectus.The management expense ratio (“MER”) is as of December 31, 2013, and is expressed as an annualized percentage of the daily average NAV. The MER without any absorptions or waivers would have been 0.17% for VCN. The Manager expects to continue absorbing or waiving certain fees indefinitely, but may in its discretion, discontinue this practice at any time.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Management fee is the primary component of MER. New MER won't deviate too far from the new management fee.
Last year's annual report
http://www.blackrock.com/ca/individual/ ... -en-ca.pdf
Jump to page 6.
Management fee: 3,714,336
Total expenses: 3,721,817
Net assets: 1,329,701,408
2013 MER = Total expenses / Net assets = 0.27%
You will know 2014 MER when they issue 2014 Annual Report. As I mentioned, 2014 MER is based on the blended fee (before/after the reduction). To find the real current MER, you have to wait for 2015 Annual Report. It will come out in the spring of 2016.
Last year's annual report
http://www.blackrock.com/ca/individual/ ... -en-ca.pdf
Jump to page 6.
Management fee: 3,714,336
Total expenses: 3,721,817
Net assets: 1,329,701,408
2013 MER = Total expenses / Net assets = 0.27%
You will know 2014 MER when they issue 2014 Annual Report. As I mentioned, 2014 MER is based on the blended fee (before/after the reduction). To find the real current MER, you have to wait for 2015 Annual Report. It will come out in the spring of 2016.
- strathglass
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Thanks - I think this is the key thing, which I didn't realize.ig17 wrote:Management fee is the primary component of MER. New MER won't deviate too far from the new management fee.
So I guess I should therefore be OK to just stick with XIC!
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
You have it backwards, it was VG which matched iShares and BMO just a few months ago. http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2014/10/ ... -its-move/strathglass wrote:I was considering changing from XIC to VCN. That was before the latest fee reduction last year from iShares (management fee reduced to 0.05%, matching Vanguard's fee for VCN).
VCN/ZCN/XIC/HXT all charge the same management fee and should all have MERs of .06% once their lowered fee has been around for a year and a new annual report comes out. CCP has even assumed the new MERs on his site. http://canadiancouchpotato.com/recommended-funds/
Switch if you have a preference for VG, prefer the index VCN tracks or for any other reason but don't do it based on costs, they should all be identical.
- strathglass
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
I stand corrected.gsp_ wrote:You have it backwards, it was VG which matched iShares and BMO just a few months ago.
...
Switch if you have a preference for VG, prefer the index VCN tracks or for any other reason but don't do it based on costs, they should all be identical.
As noted above, I will simply stick with what I have now - XIC. I don't have a strong enough preference for VG to switch!
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
A point of clarification (I'm sure you know this but for those who may not): Fees are charged daily, i.e. 1/365th of the current MER is charged on the daily asset base. So if someone switches to a new ETF now they will pay the new lower fee, not the blended fee that will be published in the annual report for calendar 2014.gsp_ wrote:VCN/ZCN/XIC/HXT all charge the same management fee and should all have MERs of .06% once their lowered fee has been around for a year and a new annual report comes out.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Bump.
What are the 2017 thoughts on this? I've held XIC for years, but I recently opened an IB account and noticed for some reason that XIC is not eligible for higher margin but VCN is.
Also, and not exactly on topic but related - now that we are charged more tax for dividends, is there a change in sheltering priority? It used to go from Canadian dividends on one end to fixed income on the other end of the spectrum.
What are the 2017 thoughts on this? I've held XIC for years, but I recently opened an IB account and noticed for some reason that XIC is not eligible for higher margin but VCN is.
Also, and not exactly on topic but related - now that we are charged more tax for dividends, is there a change in sheltering priority? It used to go from Canadian dividends on one end to fixed income on the other end of the spectrum.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
1. XIC/VCN = 6/(3+3). One will outperform the other by a bit in any given year - only to go the other way next. Long term it is your asset allocation that will determine your return. Once you have a fund, stick with it.florch wrote: ↑25 Nov 2017 10:45 Bump.
What are the 2017 thoughts on this? I've held XIC for years, but I recently opened an IB account and noticed for some reason that XIC is not eligible for higher margin but VCN is.
Also, and not exactly on topic but related - now that we are charged more tax for dividends, is there a change in sheltering priority? It used to go from Canadian dividends on one end to fixed income on the other end of the spectrum.
2. Are we charged "more tax on dividends"? Since when?
3. There is an argument for sheltering fixed income (taxation). I chose to keep fixed income in a non-registered account because:
- Lower expected long-term return on FI vs stocks. Whatever grows more needs more sheltering so the taxman gets less.
- Fixed Income is a safety cushion, which one keeps for bad years. Easy access is important for this scenario - and I wouldn't want to have to decimate sheltered accounts after a crash.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
I realize they are substantially the same. For some reason, XIC does not show up as eligible for higher margin and VCN does.
Eligible dividends in Ontario increased from 33.82% to 39.34% from 2015 to 2016 at the top rate as one example and similar increases at lower incomes. This is a combined increase of both the federal and provincial parts. At the same time the top income tax rate went from 49.53 to 53.53.
Unless it is for short term needs, I would shelter the income that attracted the highest taxes, although I like your idea of sheltering the income that was expected to earn the highest return. So first in your TFSA would be the highest tax and highest return, and then in your RRSP the highest taxed and not necessarily the highest return because you will eventually pay income tax on this, and finally outside of a sheltered account you could keep your lowest taxed and highest return. So, Interest and income at 53.53%, Eligible Div's at 39.34% and Cap gains at 26.76%.
Eligible dividends in Ontario increased from 33.82% to 39.34% from 2015 to 2016 at the top rate as one example and similar increases at lower incomes. This is a combined increase of both the federal and provincial parts. At the same time the top income tax rate went from 49.53 to 53.53.
Unless it is for short term needs, I would shelter the income that attracted the highest taxes, although I like your idea of sheltering the income that was expected to earn the highest return. So first in your TFSA would be the highest tax and highest return, and then in your RRSP the highest taxed and not necessarily the highest return because you will eventually pay income tax on this, and finally outside of a sheltered account you could keep your lowest taxed and highest return. So, Interest and income at 53.53%, Eligible Div's at 39.34% and Cap gains at 26.76%.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
You are correct for an Ontario taxpayer with an annual income over $220k.florch wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017 22:09 Eligible dividends in Ontario increased from 33.82% to 39.34% from 2015 to 2016 at the top rate as one example and similar increases at lower incomes. This is a combined increase of both the federal and provincial parts. At the same time the top income tax rate went from 49.53 to 53.53.
You are wrong for an Ontario taxpayer with lower income.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Yes, I did state just one example. I'm not sure where the pattern falls apart. I think that taxes in general went up in this regard for upper middle if not middle income folks as well. I'm lucky enough to be somewhere in the upper middle, not at the top, but I still feel I'm heavily taxed and that it increased substantially starting in 2016.adrian2 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2017 06:03You are correct for an Ontario taxpayer with an annual income over $220k.florch wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017 22:09 Eligible dividends in Ontario increased from 33.82% to 39.34% from 2015 to 2016 at the top rate as one example and similar increases at lower incomes. This is a combined increase of both the federal and provincial parts. At the same time the top income tax rate went from 49.53 to 53.53.
You are wrong for an Ontario taxpayer with lower income.
That is pretty much out of my control without moving or some other drastic measure. I'm more concerned with how to best deal with the hand as dealt in terms of sheltering or borrowing to finance investment.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
The Ontario top tax rate went up, by quite a bit. Nothing specifically for dividends, just the tax rate in general.florch wrote: ↑28 Nov 2017 10:01Yes, I did state just one example. I'm not sure where the pattern falls apart. I think that taxes in general went up in this regard for upper middle if not middle income folks as well. I'm lucky enough to be somewhere in the upper middle, not at the top, but I still feel I'm heavily taxed and that it increased substantially starting in 2016.adrian2 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2017 06:03You are correct for an Ontario taxpayer with an annual income over $220k.florch wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017 22:09 Eligible dividends in Ontario increased from 33.82% to 39.34% from 2015 to 2016 at the top rate as one example and similar increases at lower incomes. This is a combined increase of both the federal and provincial parts. At the same time the top income tax rate went from 49.53 to 53.53.
You are wrong for an Ontario taxpayer with lower income.
That is pretty much out of my control without moving or some other drastic measure. I'm more concerned with how to best deal with the hand as dealt in terms of sheltering or borrowing to finance investment.
The lower tax brackets were unaffected, in general and for dividends specifically.
You originally stated: "now that we are charged more tax for dividends". For the vast majority of people, that's not the case.
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“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.” [Richard P. Feynman, Nobel prize winner]
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Perhaps http://www.taxtips.ca/priortaxrates/tax ... 016/on.htm will help refresh memory.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
A2, you are right. Only those above $200k were affected for dividends, but from a 3.5 to 5.5% increase. I was under the impression it went down all the way to about $80k, probably from reading the chart brackets incorrectly.
Thanks Alta for the clarification I was looking for.
Thanks Alta for the clarification I was looking for.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Re: the original question, I changed most of my Ishares shares in LIRA and RRSP accounts to Vanguard equivalents a couple years ago when Investor's Edge offered free ETF transactions for a couple of months. The difference in fees wasn't huge, but it was a couple hundred K$ in those ETFs. VCN was the largest purchase for me at that point.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
None of these are earth shattering but I was surprised by some of VCN’s properties as listed in Bender’s latest podcast.
1. No cap on an individual stock so NT situation could occur. XIC and ZCN both follow the S&P/TSX Capped Composite Index which limits each stock to no more than 10%.
2. For some inconceivable reason VCN doesn’t follow the domestic version of the FTSE Canada All Cap index so stock allocations are based on foreign ownership rules. Telus, BCE, Air Canada, etc. are underrepresented since they have foreign ownership restrictions. FLCD uses the proper FTSE domestic index. No such issue with XIC/ZCN.
3. FTSE indices don’t include limited partnerships so the various Brookfield LPs are excluded from VCN but are included in XIC/ZCN since S&P has no such limitation.
1. No cap on an individual stock so NT situation could occur. XIC and ZCN both follow the S&P/TSX Capped Composite Index which limits each stock to no more than 10%.
2. For some inconceivable reason VCN doesn’t follow the domestic version of the FTSE Canada All Cap index so stock allocations are based on foreign ownership rules. Telus, BCE, Air Canada, etc. are underrepresented since they have foreign ownership restrictions. FLCD uses the proper FTSE domestic index. No such issue with XIC/ZCN.
3. FTSE indices don’t include limited partnerships so the various Brookfield LPs are excluded from VCN but are included in XIC/ZCN since S&P has no such limitation.
Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
Performance difference using yearly returns from M*.
XIC wins 5 out of 6 years. Quite a difference.
Corrected 2019 VCN return.
Code: Select all
Year XIC VCN Diff
2014 10.42 9.79 0.63
2015 -8.35 -8.73 0.38
2016 21.01 21.45 -0.44
2017 9.05 8.45 0.60
2018 -8.83 -9.05 0.22
2019 22.89 22.08 0.81
Average 0.37
Corrected 2019 VCN return.
Last edited by DenisD on 09 Jan 2020 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
VCN includes micro-caps which did badly and are aren't included in XIC. See this post.
It's more meaningful to compare ETFs to their indices. It's also best to avoid Morningstar data which contains errors.
Here are trailing 5-year returns from ETF provider websites as of December 31, 2019:
VCN (NAV) 5.94% vs index 6.03% (-0.09% tracking error), MER 0.06%
XIC (NAV) 6.27% vs index 6.28% (-0.01% tracking error), MER 0.06%
XIC had a smaller tracking error than VCN. XIC's tracking error was even smaller than its own MER. But, it's safe to say that both ETFs were quite good at tracking their index.
It's more meaningful to compare ETFs to their indices. It's also best to avoid Morningstar data which contains errors.
Here are trailing 5-year returns from ETF provider websites as of December 31, 2019:
VCN (NAV) 5.94% vs index 6.03% (-0.09% tracking error), MER 0.06%
XIC (NAV) 6.27% vs index 6.28% (-0.01% tracking error), MER 0.06%
XIC had a smaller tracking error than VCN. XIC's tracking error was even smaller than its own MER. But, it's safe to say that both ETFs were quite good at tracking their index.
Last edited by longinvest on 09 Jan 2020 15:10, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: XIC vs VCN...time to change?
About Morningstar data errors, here's an example.
The Vanguard Canadian Aggregate Bond Index ETF (VAB) Annual Management Report of Fund Performance* (MRFP) for 2012 published an official 3.00% return. Vanguard's website publishes a 3.00% NAV return and a 2.93% price return for 2012. Morningstar publishes a 2.98% NAV return and a 3.62% (!!!) price return for 2012.
* It can be downloaded from SEDAR.
Annual MRFP returns are based on verified financial statements and are subject to strict reporting regulations. This gives additional credibility to Vanguard's numbers which exactly match official returns, and discredits Morningstar numbers which differ from regulatory numbers.
The Vanguard Canadian Aggregate Bond Index ETF (VAB) Annual Management Report of Fund Performance* (MRFP) for 2012 published an official 3.00% return. Vanguard's website publishes a 3.00% NAV return and a 2.93% price return for 2012. Morningstar publishes a 2.98% NAV return and a 3.62% (!!!) price return for 2012.
* It can be downloaded from SEDAR.
Annual MRFP returns are based on verified financial statements and are subject to strict reporting regulations. This gives additional credibility to Vanguard's numbers which exactly match official returns, and discredits Morningstar numbers which differ from regulatory numbers.
Variable Percentage Withdrawal (finiki.org/wiki/VPW) | One-Fund Portfolio (VBAL in all accounts)