AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Descartes »

Former federal bridge president jailed for accepting bribes from SNC-Lavalin
Michel Fournier admitted to taking more than $2.3 million from the engineering company, which deposited the funds in a series of Swiss bank accounts ..
Court documents stated Fournier lost a significant amount of the money in the stock market.
The government was only able to confiscate $775,000.
:rofl:
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Hammerer »

With the collapse of Carillion, perhaps SNC Lavalin is poised to pick up some assets on the cheap, in Canada and in the UK.

Though their UK acquisition, Kentz, doesn't do the same kinds of business in the UK, SNC certainly has some overlap with Carillion in Canada.

I don't own any SNC at the moment.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by adrian2 »

SNC Lavalin plunges most in almost 30 years after profit warning over ‘serious problem’ in mining
Financial Post wrote:SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. dropped the most in at least 27 years after the builder warned it would miss its full-year profit target due to a “serious problem” with a mining contract. It also wrote down the value of its energy unit by $1.24 billion amid a diplomatic spat between Canada and Saudi Arabia.

SNC plummeted 24 per cent to $36.97 at 9:38 a.m. in Toronto. Earlier the stock dropped as much as 31 per cent, its biggest intraday decline since at least January 1992, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The plunge wiped out almost $1.8 billion in market value and pushed the stock to a three-year low.

[...]

The announcement dials up the pressure on SNC following the refusal last year by Canadian prosecutors to reach a negotiated settlement with the company over past corruption charges. The lack of a deal with Canada has probably cost SNC more than $5 billion in lost revenue and continues to damage its reputation internationally, Bruce told BNN Bloomberg TV in an interview last month.

SNC said it would “aggressively” pursue project claims through the contract protocols “up to and including engaging in a dispute resolution process.”

Worse than expected trading challenges in oil and gas in the Middle East — and Saudi Arabia in particular — also weighed on fourth-quarter results, SNC said. More than 15 per cent of the company’s global workforce is employed on work in Saudi Arabia, which has been a key source of revenue growth in recent years.
I have no position in the stock.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Norbert Schlenker »

I have a position in the stock, but my ACB is $6.22. Notwithstanding that I always hate paying capital gains taxes, I've trimmed the position numerous times since it was bought.

Ignorning dividends, it's been dead money for more than ten years. But sloth and ennui may overcome the urge to "do something" just because they can't seem to help looking like shady characters.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Profit not Prophet »

It does make me wonder, at what point do you go from looking like a shady character to being a shady character. A thin line somewhere.
One other thing, at what point do they just sell the engineering and concentrate on being a toll road? Seems the better business.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by kumquat »

Maybe it belongs in the watercooler, I'd have thought that today's news might move it a bit more. Seems like they won't get a "remediation agreement" unless and until PMJT wins the next election.
I don't intend to offend anyone, that part is just a bonus.

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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by BRIAN5000 »

I can't find the right thread (pressed for time at the moment) so I will post it here cause it hypothetically involves SNC. (sometimes I need to shake my head and that doesn't often help)

Lets say I buy SNC in my TFSA for $40 X 1000 shares some time ago. I want to change my TFSA to all VCNS/VBAL so I pull SNC out of my TFSA. (numbers are all rounded off) When I pull SNC out of my TFSA at the end of the year it's trading at $50 (DEc 2017) I wait till after January 1 2018 and put the $50,000 back into my TFSA. My SNC is now outside my TFSA with a ACB of $50 subsequently SNC drops to $40 and I sell it. Without losing any money I have a $10,000 capital loss? :roll:
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by kumquat »

IANAL (or an accountant) but this https://www.taxtips.ca/tfsa/withdrawals.htm suggests you can do it. Maybe something else suggests you can't, but I'll leave that to the people who might be correct.
I don't intend to offend anyone, that part is just a bonus.

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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by BRIAN5000 »

kumquat wrote: 07 Feb 2019 18:59 IANAL (or an accountant) but this https://www.taxtips.ca/tfsa/withdrawals.htm suggests you can do it. Maybe something else suggests you can't, but I'll leave that to the people who might be correct.
Sounds right, I have an aquaitance that has a boat load of Premium Brands Holdings Corporation and only PHB in his TFSA at a very low coast base. Would have worked well for him if he was going to diversify but to late now. I'm intending to hold SNC but I could sell and rebuy in + 30 days I guess.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Thegipper »

I never thought I would be on the side of SNC. Their crime seems too playing by the rules in third world and emerging markets. That means bribes and payoffs to get contracts.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by kumquat »

While I don't disagree, the Canadian government made the law and Canadian companies must follow it. You don't get to break the law and buy your way out of the consequences. If you,SNC, doesn't like the law, your job is to bribe the party in power to change it.

Edit to add: Since the Cretien government outlawed such actions in 1999, PMJT can't blame Harper. Liberals must live and die with virtue signalling.
I don't intend to offend anyone, that part is just a bonus.

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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Mordko »

Thegipper wrote: 07 Feb 2019 20:21 I never thought I would be on the side of SNC. Their crime seems too playing by the rules in third world and emerging markets. That means bribes and payoffs to get contracts.
One can always say “no”. And one should. We are all trained to spot illegal behaviour exactly like that. SNC executives knowingly broke the law. If you steal, try telling the judge “others do it too”, see how that line of defence works out.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

adrian2 wrote: 28 Jan 2019 14:20 SNC Lavalin plunges most in almost 30 years after profit warning over ‘serious problem’ in mining
Financial Post wrote:SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. dropped the most in at least 27 years after the builder warned it would miss its full-year profit target due to a “serious problem” with a mining contract. It also wrote down the value of its energy unit by $1.24 billion amid a diplomatic spat between Canada and Saudi Arabia.
They have warned again, SNC-Lavalin Issues New Profit Warning on Latin America Contract - Bloomberg
Bloomberg wrote:SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. issued a profit warning for the second time in two weeks after the Canadian company failed to reach an agreement over a dispute with a client in mining project in Latin America.

SNC now sees 2018 diluted adjusted earning from engineering and construction of between C$0.20 and C$0.35 per share for the year, the Montreal-based company said Monday in a statement. That compares with C$1.15 to C$1.30, after outlining the problem on Jan. 28 and announcing a writedown on its business with Saudi Arabia.

The shares fell 4.8 percent to C$34.94 in Toronto, after plunging 28 percent, the most in at least 27 years, on the initial warning in January.
We have no position in SNC and have never really considered one because I've always been suspicious of their management teams and corporate culture going back many, many years.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by AltaRed »

A little 'off-topic' but is it just coincidence that companies (Canadian ones at least) that seriously misstep seldom seem to recover without a significant re-birth of sorts? SNC may never regain its former glory just like MFC has never really recovered from serious risk management missteps and ALA where management ego turned the company inside out. CIBC less so, but remains behind its peers with its history of running into sharp objects. IIRC, TRP took a long time to recover from its near death experience in 1999 and only after a surgical carving of management and assets. I am sure there are others.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Administrator »

Some posts discussing the politics, i.e., not financial aspects, have been moved into the Watercooler topic about SNC's troubles
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by jay »

Drops of 40-50% are common with this stock, not even including 2008-2009. I am surprised it is not down even more. PE still high - too high - for a scandal of this magnitude. I will check again if/when the stock trades in the 20's.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by Dudsy »

Different business models (and ethics)
Different business models (and ethics)
WSP vs SNC.GIF (43.7 KiB) Viewed 1870 times
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by jay »

SNC-Lavalin Group slashes dividend 65%, reports $1.6B fourth-quarter loss

Good price action today after the ER. Perhaps all the bad news are factored in by now? I am watching but in no rush to buy. A scandal of this sort should take the stock back to a decade low. I have a stink bid at 27.5, close to the 2008/2009 lows
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by nisser »

Stock has done nothing for the past 15 years.
Operating income in 2011 was 600. It's 680 TTM and likely to plummet in the future.
Why even own it?
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by beachcomber »

Rosen Law Firm of New York is preparing a class action suit against SNC. Suit is based on SNC's recent misleading financial reporting of their mining/metallurgical operations. Seems to relate to shares purchases made in U.S. OTC trading; although Rosen claims to represent global investors. Interested parties can contact them through their website
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by OhGreatGuru »

Completely aside from the Canadian criminal case against the corporation and some past executives, not sure why anyone would want to own stock in a company potentially facing several multi-million dollar civil suits for corrupting public officials in various countries. They may have to break up the business to pay off their debts.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by AltaRed »

Agreed that as an investment opportunity, this would never be on my list. There are just too many less tainted alternatives.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by OhGreatGuru »

Thegipper wrote: 07 Feb 2019 20:21 I never thought I would be on the side of SNC. Their crime seems too playing by the rules in third world and emerging markets. That means bribes and payoffs to get contracts.
The Canadian legislation (the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act (CFPOA)) is similar to that of 43 countries who are party to the OECD anti-Bribery Convention. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Anti ... on#Members

If SNC was headquartered in any one of the 43 countries it could be facing similar charges. The object of the Convention (and the National enabling legislations) is to put a stop to this "business as usual" attitude by companies resident in the signatory countries. Because these payoffs are corrupting public officials in other countries. To quote an old '60's saying "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

PS. In case you should be tempted to say: "That's very nice, but why should the Canadian voter really care?", let me remind you that SNC has also been implicated in a number of schemes apparently intended to circumvent Canadian electoral financing laws. And it's pretty clear from recent events that they have a number of senior Liberals deep in their pockets. Not literally - I am not suggesting anything as blatant as bribery. But they have a lot of Liberals convinced that if they don't "help SNC out", the Liberals will have a bleak future in Quebec.
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by kcowan »

It appears that there was a mostly secret agreement from 2015:

Wonder why that did not come to light before given all the scrutiny?
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Re: AtkinsRealis - Symbol T:ATRL (Was SNC Lavalin - SNC)

Post by BRIAN5000 »

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/snc-w ... 51555.html

OTTAWA — SNC-Lavalin warned federal prosecutors last fall about a possible plan to split the company in two, move its offices to the United States and eliminate its Canadian workforce if it didn't get a deal to avoid criminal prosecution, newly obtained documents show.
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