Canadian Banks

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Rysto
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Rysto »

TD tries to upsell me so much I honestly loath going into the branch. Unfortunately I live in an apartment and periodically need to go in to get change for laundry, so I can't avoid branch visits entirely. I try to go when the branch is busiest as the tellers don't upsell as much when they have a queue of customers to get through.

Needless to say, the CBC revelations don't surprise me at all.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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wondering if this is similar to the problems that hit Wells Fargo?
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by SQRT »

Thegipper wrote:wondering if this is similar to the problems that hit Wells Fargo?
This is obviously what the market fears.
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AltaRed
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Re: Canadian Banks

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Per Twa2w, I concur anecdotally with his assessment based on discussions with my sons, both of whom are employed by big 5 banks. That said, I suspect the selling pressure varies a lot. The Wells Fargo case was especially egregious so no, we are not anywhere close if for no other reason that the reputational damage would most like be unrecoverable. That said, TD has some explaining to do if they are out front on this.

Edited to remove extraneous material
Last edited by AltaRed on 10 Mar 2017 16:52, edited 2 times in total.
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BRIAN5000
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Re: Canadian Banks

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My experience on the front lines and in talking to former colleagues is that there is a lot of pressure for sales quotas on tellers.
I don't get much any hassle from Tellers, mostly from small Branch managers and one level below.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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Rysto wrote:TD tries to upsell me so much I honestly loath going into the branch. Unfortunately I live in an apartment and periodically need to go in to get change for laundry, so I can't avoid branch visits entirely. I try to go when the branch is busiest as the tellers don't upsell as much when they have a queue of customers to get through.

Needless to say, the CBC revelations don't surprise me at all.
My business accounts are with TD bank.
My investments (personal, business, registered etc) are with TD Waterhouse.
Most of my personal accounts are with CIBC / PCF / Tangerine; with TD I have a US$ chequing / savings account only.

From time to time, I do need to go to a TD teller, and I have never experienced any kind of upsell. What are they trying to sell you?
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by SoninlawofGus »

I do go to TD tellers several times a year. In my experience, they try to soft-sell something maybe 25-30% of the time -- extending my line of credit is typical (I never use it) or, more recently, RRSPs. I've gotten a harder sell through phone solicitation about wealth management. This has happened several times now, including very unwelcome calls to my work phone number. I've also gotten it from tellers, though they have been nicer about it.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Profit not Prophet »

Personal account at bmo and I find they will call or offered up more often than td. At TD we have just the brokerage account but use the teller once in a while. Ya little stuff, dangles offers. Probably a rogue pushy boss and a belligerent po'd teller. Bigger things in this life to worry about but a single prick of blood in the water and the sharks are thrashing aren't they.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Thegipper »

I bank at RY and can't say I had any such experience. I very seldom use the tellers or counter people . I did some business at CIBC and I note I have received a lot of mail pertaining to credit cards and insurance products. Surely that isn't anything wrong with the employees of a business being asked to try to promote and sell it's products and services. There would have to be an element of false or fraudulent actions to constitute a major problem.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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adrian2 wrote:From time to time, I do need to go to a TD teller, and I have never experienced any kind of upsell. What are they trying to sell you?
Far and away the most common is an "upgrade" to a chequing account with a higher minimum balance. They've also tried to get me to increase the credit limit on my credit card, switch to a different (and almost certainly inferior credit card) or sign up for a overdraft program.

The most egregious case happened several years ago, when the teller tried to sell me on a "overdraft protection" scheme that I'd honestly call a scam. The way that it worked, as I understood it, is that I would put up some money -- say $1K-2K -- and then if I overdrafted my account, they'd take it out of the money I put in and would be gracious enough to charge me a reduced overdraft fee. Yes, that's right, I would be charged to access my own money. Oh, and in the middle of her sales spiel, the teller said something along the lines of "that way, if you were to write a $X cheque and it was cashed too quickly ...", effectively announcing my account balance to anyone in earshot. I declined the offer.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by SQRT »

Thegipper wrote:There would have to be an element of false or fraudulent actions to constitute a major problem.
The concern would be that the teller would record a sale without the customer's knowledge or approval. Something like an increase in overdraft protection, or CC limit increase, or Heloc limit increase, or more expensive chequing account. Anything that doesn't require a customer signature.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by AltaRed »

I've not had any upselling pressure from Scotia either although I typically don't go into a branch more than once every few years (to get foreign currency mostly). Nor do I get any mail solicitations from them like I used to do (and still do to some extent) from CIBC with whom I now only have a credit card. Tactics and pressure no doubt vary depending on where the corporate push is.
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adrian2
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by adrian2 »

Rysto wrote:
adrian2 wrote:From time to time, I do need to go to a TD teller, and I have never experienced any kind of upsell. What are they trying to sell you?
Far and away the most common is an "upgrade" to a chequing account with a higher minimum balance. They've also tried to get me to increase the credit limit on my credit card, switch to a different (and almost certainly inferior credit card) or sign up for a overdraft program.
"No, thank you!" is all that's needed to reply.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by twa2w »

SQRT wrote:
Thegipper wrote:There would have to be an element of false or fraudulent actions to constitute a major problem.
The concern would be that the teller would record a sale without the customer's knowledge or approval. Something like an increase in overdraft protection, or CC limit increase, or Heloc limit increase, or more expensive chequing account. Anything that doesn't require a customer signature.
Apparently this is what was happening in some cases. And I think this happens more than we think and has been happening for far longer although I don't think it was ever as wide spread in the past.
I remember in the 90's some branches( not TD) selling many hundreds of Visa's over a two month summer campaign. Pretty sure most did not have a signature.(although not strictly illegal at the time- signing the credit card and using it constituted acceptance)
The pressure for sales has been escalating for years and being pushed further down the good chain.
Most banks now have weekly one on one goal setting sessions with personal Bankers and tellers. How much did you sell/refer last week vs target. What is target for this week and how are you hoing to achieve it?

I have no doubt the other banks are having hastily called meetings, memos, etc, with managers and front line staff emphasizing needs based selling etc. They will all be scared it is happening with them and will be terrified that it will get out. Of course all the managers will deny it is happening in their branches but I am willing to bet that teller referrals and sales will be much lower in the next few months and banks will review how they set targets etc etc.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Mordko »

The only "big 5" I ever dealt with was RBC and I did find them a bit of a pain. They kept bothering me with their credit card offers and at one point offered a "market GIC". That last one I took a particular offence to as they obviously thought I would be dumb enough to buy something like that.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Hammerer »

The funny bit about credit cards is that you can often get a better offer signing up online through a link on Greatcanadianrebates or ratesupermarket. I will sell my soul for a $100 gift card.

I've experienced the soft-sell several times, but it makes sense: I (ab)use Scotia just for a LoC (I do my month-to-month through my Credit Union), and when I had just a US$ CC from BMO, where I had to pay it in-branch, but had no other accounts.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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My credit card spending averages around $2000 per month which I pay off each month. The credit limit was $15,000 when I first got my Capital One Mastercard but has risen to $20,000 automatically without me asking even those I have never gone above $4000 in any 1 month......doesn't cost me anything to have a higher limit so I don't really care.

I've been offered credit card limit increases and HELOC increases by several financial institutions over the years. Only costs you if you use the extra credit and don't pay your balance in full incurring interest charges. Seems fairly standard for most financial institutions, but if I incur a service charge for a product I didn't ask for, you can bet I would mention it to the financial institution.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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About 10 years ago I had a CU mortgage on a rental property. I was working on transferring the mortgage to ING who had a much superior interest rate. The CU contacted me and said they would give me a slightly better rate if I would transfer my investments to their collateral brokerage arm and took up some property insurance with them. I wasn't impressed with that type of salesmanship.It was that type of thing that others were worried about with the banks.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by JaydoubleU »

SHAREHOLDER ALERT: Goldberg Law PC Announces An Investigation Of The Toronto-Dominion Bank And Advises Investors With Losses To Contact The Firm
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... 0310005739

I think this is a lucky break for the other banks. I would be surprised if they haven't held emergency meetings to scrutinize their business practices and clean up before unwanted attention turns their way as well.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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JaydoubleU wrote:
SHAREHOLDER ALERT: Goldberg Law PC Announces An Investigation Of The Toronto-Dominion Bank And Advises Investors With Losses To Contact The Firm
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... 0310005739

I think this is a lucky break for the other banks. I would be surprised if they haven't held emergency meetings to scrutinize their business practices and clean up before unwanted attention turns their way as well.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Thegipper »

The Merchant Law Group should have a Canadian class action forthwith. A.G. Power and Associates gave TD the award for top service for 10 years running . They dropped to second in the most recent ratings.
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Re: Canadian Banks

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Thegipper wrote:About 10 years ago I had a CU mortgage on a rental property. I was working on transferring the mortgage to ING who had a much superior interest rate. The CU contacted me and said they would give me a slightly better rate if I would transfer my investments to their collateral brokerage arm and took up some property insurance with them. I wasn't impressed with that type of salesmanship.It was that type of thing that others were worried about with the banks.
This type of salesmanship is illegal it's called tied selling.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by SQRT »

A $4 price decline seems like a huge overreaction to me. This wipes out about $7billion of market cap. Any problems couldn't possibly be that large. My spouse bought some TD today at about $66. I would expect a fairly quick rebound.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by Hammerer »

BRIAN5000 wrote:
Thegipper wrote:The CU contacted me and said they would give me a better rate is I transfer
This type of salesmanship is illegal it's called tied selling.
Does this apply to CUs? (And I guess the regs would vary province to province). I thought tied selling prohibitions was a federal bank act thing.

Now only if the CRTC could apply the same philosophy for the same reasons.
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Re: Canadian Banks

Post by FinEcon »

BRIAN5000 wrote:
Thegipper wrote:About 10 years ago I had a CU mortgage on a rental property. I was working on transferring the mortgage to ING who had a much superior interest rate. The CU contacted me and said they would give me a slightly better rate if I would transfer my investments to their collateral brokerage arm and took up some property insurance with them. I wasn't impressed with that type of salesmanship.It was that type of thing that others were worried about with the banks.
This type of salesmanship is illegal it's called tied selling.
We don't have all the details but what is described by Thegipper sounds a lot more like bundling than tied selling.
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