TD Direct Investing (was Waterhouse) Service

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Donut
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TD Direct Investing (was Waterhouse) Service

Post by Donut » 17 Jan 2007 14:49

Is anyone having a problem getting service from TDW - or just me?

Early December I bought a $30k GIC through TDW from AGF Trust. I asked for interest paid annually but when the confirmation came through it was for interest compounded. Ever since, I have been trying to get it changed. I have talked to 5 different TDW reps, all of whom say it can be done but none of whom have done it or even called me back. When I call back I find they have given me false extension numbers or don't answer their extensions. One extension I was given is actually in their Ottawa office. When I tried to talk to a supervisor I was left on hold for 5 minutes and then the line went dead. Whenever I do get someone on the phone they want to focus on who to blame rather than on fixing the problem.

You know, it's not a big deal. I have to pay tax on money I didn't receive and I am short $1200 in my December cash flow each year but nothing life threatening. What is so damn frustrating, however, is that no one will take responsibility and do something to fix the problem. I suddenly feel so very insecure learning that when I have a problem, no one at TDW cares.

TDW have confirmed to me that the cost of transferring my entire account to another institution is $100. I am sure another bank will be happy to pay that to get my business.

Can anyone give me advice on how to deal with TDW or where to take my business?

Edited Subject to reflect new name
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Bylo Selhi
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Post by Bylo Selhi » 17 Jan 2007 15:07

If you're not a President Account client, use their phone number anyway. It's 1-800-668-1972 in Ontario. Those agents are far better than the regular ones.

Failing that, work your way up the food chain.

Moving isn't necessarily a good solution. The other brokers aren't any different in that (a) they occasionally screw up, (often doing transfers and especially now that it's RRSP season) and (b) they have similar escalation procedures. Also, you may not be able to transfer some GICs like AGF Trust's from one broker to another.

P.S. You'll likely get more responses if this was in the General Finance forum.
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Post by Donut » 17 Jan 2007 15:21

We can always depend on you Bylo.

I am confident that, with the information you provided, I can get someone who will listen and, perhaps, even act. Thanks for your help.

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Post by Donut » 17 Jan 2007 15:48

I was just looking into a Presidents Account. I would need to have $500k on deposit while I am $100k short of that. We still have our RIFs and LIFs at CIBC Investor's Edge and I had thought of moving them to TDW but right now I am so disgusted with them I may have to go the other way. Actually, I like having a relationship with two banks rather than one.

Thanks to your leads I will take TDW on again but in a more organized and professional way and see if they can redeem themselves.

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Post by gummy » 18 Jan 2007 04:39

I recall (years and years ago) phoning in an order to what was then Greenline ... and having it botched.

I wrote a letter to the then-president (with a copy to customer service) explaining the problem.
I also said that I was a writer and intended to write about a little old lady who lost her life savings at Redline.

I got a nice letter back and a jillion phone calls asking what I would like them to do.

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Post by Bylo Selhi » 18 Jan 2007 09:15

gummy wrote:I recall (years and years ago) phoning in an order to what was then Greenline ... and having it botched. I wrote a letter to the then-president (with a copy to customer service) explaining the problem...
Back in those days when ~$1k of bond interest had been AWOL for a couple of months and, despite countless phone calls, no one there could locate it, I sent a fax to the same guy (but with a cc: to OSFI's Ottawa mailing address. In those days OSFI was the ultimate go-to for consumers who had beefs with Canada's banks and, apparently, carried considerabe weight.)

The fax to TD went out in the morning. By noon I got a call from someone who was very apologetic and promised to have the missing $1k in my account before the close of business. Before ending the call he asked, with some concern, if I'd put the cc: to OSFI in the mail yet. He asked that if I hadn't, it would make his life a lot easier if I didn't. Otherwise someone at TD would have to deal with someone from Ottawa whose job would be to try to help them find my money.

Of course I hadn't, nor did I. And true to his word my $1k was in my account the following morning :twisted:

Alas OSFI no longer takes complaints from mere taxpayers. Nowadays one has to go through the escalation procedure described in the first link. That's no longer as easy, fast (or as satisfying.)
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Post by gouthro » 18 Jan 2007 09:26

was just looking into a Presidents Account. I would need to have $500k on deposit while I am $100k short of that. We still have our RIFs and LIFs at CIBC Investor's Edge and I had thought of moving them to TDW but right now I am so disgusted with them I may have to go the other way. Actually, I like having a relationship with two banks rather than one.
I have dealt with BMO and RBC now and I don't think either of them is any better ( or any worse for that matter) and so I don't see a lot of profit in shifting. Once I get my money from RBC for moving there, I have, in fact, been thinking about moving to TD, where they have the President's Account which allows trades for ten dollars or so. If RBC should develop a similar plan, i would just as happily stay there.
Joe

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TD Waterhouse

Post by j831robert » 18 Jan 2007 21:14

I am currently involved (again) with TD Waterhouse and their left hand not knowing what their right hand etc, etc.

Madame has her RRIF with them. We're not talking big bucks here but it is HERS and has been appreciating nicely. I have her Power of Attorney and do the footwork for her. My dealings with them are all by telephone - great if you like elevator music and have lots of time. She withdraws the minimum allowable at the end of each year.

In December of each year we head off to Vegas for Christmas. Two years ago I telephoned their Headshed, got a broker on the line, explained that we were leaving the country for a week and that we wanted to set up her annual withdrawal for the last banking day of the year with the funds to be drawn from an specific equity fund.

After much humming and hawing I was informed that the broker could not accept an order to sell for anything but the current end of day (??) which would, of course, ensure that the funds were sold before the annual payout of capital gains. Not impressed, but anxious to get the situ resolved I asked that a cheque be forwarded to my wife. The cheque did arrive in due course, followed a week or so later by a letter from their 'beancounting department' advising that no units had been sold to cover the cheque and an immediate order to sell was required to recify what sounded like 'my' error.

This year, being older and wiser, I again called a day or so before our departure but this time asked to speak with someone in Customer Relations. Very pleasant lady. I outlined our requirements, a sell date as close to the last banking day of the year as possible, sell only from the equity, etc. Absolutely no problem Mr ***** I will see that it is done and the proceed forwarded by ETF to your wife's local bank.

Merry Christmas. When we checked with her bank after the holiday the money had been forwarded as requested but on the 21st of December. Silly me, I hadn't realized that no work is done at TD Waterhouse between Christmas and Hogmany.

Their end of December statement arrived the other day and I was pleased to note that her account was credited with the full annual capital gains payout but showed a debit of the dollar value of her withdrawal and no indication of the sale of units to accommodate that amount.

And of course, this week, the letter from their 'Beancounting Department' advising that the sky was going to fall if I didn't authorize a sale of an appropriate number of units to cover the deficit.

Telephone again - two ladies this time, a worker and a supervisor, neither of whom could explain what had happened to my (presumably taped) sell order. Their only resolution was for me to place an order with them for the sale of sufficient units to cover the money my wife had already received and that the sale would be effective the next day, (mutual funds) at that day's closing price (lower than that of Dec 21st so more units would have to be sold).

Now I suppose I could have started a war and asked for a sell date in 2006 but figured we were coming out ahead on this. I am now anxiously awaiting their next statement to see that it has been resolved as agreed or if they have found yet another way to bugger it up. I am very happy that we are not in the six-figure range with this or I might see it as less of a joke !

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Post by brucecohen » 18 Jan 2007 21:33

I don't understand why you're going to so much trouble.

The capital gains distribution is a neutral event. Reinvestment increases the unit count but the distribution reduces the NAV accordingly. So her total value is the same just before and just after the distribution.

Most funds with December yearends pay distributions on Dec 15 or Dec 20 so you don't have to wait until the very last minute to do a post-distribution withdrawal.

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TD Waterhouse

Post by j831robert » 19 Jan 2007 13:05

Agreed that distribution is a non-event insofar as the market value of the account is concerned (more units, same total valuation). The difficulty I foresee lies in the possibility that the selling of units necessary to meet the prescribed minimum annual deduction (my sell order) pre-date the distribution date (where the agent states that he can only action the sell order the day he received my call, or the next day's closing price if I call later in the day) thereby reducing the number of units upon which the distribution is based.

In both years that did not happen and the distribution of capital gains and deduction of annual pay-out occured concurrently BUT THERE WAS NO SALE OF UNITS TO COVER, resulting in a debit balance to the end of year account statement, a dunning letter from the 'beancounters' and a requirement to sell sufficient units in January (at whatever the market price) to cover an 'in house' omission. :roll: Just not very 'tidy'.

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Post by brucecohen » 19 Jan 2007 14:16

Maybe I'm missing something but....

Assume:
-- You hold 10 units with an NAV of $1.00
-- The fund will distribute 10-cents per unit
-- You need $2.00 cash

Case 1: Sell before the distribution
1. You have 10 units x $1.00 = $10.00
2. You sell $2.00 worth. That reduces unit count by 2.000
3. At this moment you have $2.00 cash + 8 units x $1.00 = $8.00
4. 10-cent distribution paid. NAV falls to 90-cents
5. You get $0.80. You automatically use it to buy .889 unit at $0.90.
6. You wind up with:
-- $2.00 cash
-- 8.889 units at $0.90 = $8.00


Case 2: Sell after the distribution
1. Before distribution you have 10 units x $1.00 = $10.00
2. 10-cent distribution paid. NAV falls to 90-cents
3. At this moment you have $1.00 cash + 10 units x $0.90 = $9.00
4. You automatically take your $1.00 cash and buy units at $0.90 each. Unit count rises by 1.111 to 11.111.
5. 11.111 units at $0.90 = $10.00
6. You sell $2.00 worth. That reduces unit count by 2.222
7. You wind up with:
-- $2.00 cash
-- 8.889 units at $0.90 = $8.00

Whether you sell before or after the distribution, you wind up with $2.00 cash plus 8.889 units.

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Re: TD Waterhouse Service

Post by soccerdude » 19 Jan 2007 14:20

Donut wrote:Is anyone having a problem getting service from TDW - or just me?

TDW have confirmed to me that the cost of transferring my entire account to another institution is $100. I am sure another bank will be happy to pay that to get my business.

Can anyone give me advice on how to deal with TDW or where to take my business?
I once switched from CIBC to RBC Action Direct over a small squabble and regretted it tremendously. I was rather shy about returning to CIBC so I chose TDW and am more than pleased with their service. :D

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Post by Donut » 19 Jan 2007 14:25

Just prior to my last post I had called TDW one last time and asked what the fee was to transfer my entire account to another financial institution. Surprisingly it's only $100. Any bank will agree to pay that fee to get a new account of $400k.

The young man I was talking to, of course, asked why I wanted to transfer so I told him of all the broken promises, the phony telephone extensions I had been given, the put on hold and hang up incidents, refusal to let me talk to a supervisor etc. He told me that TD were honoured with the best service award two year in a row and he was going to give me that service. I said "I'll give you till Friday"!

He called my wife today to tell her he has been in touch with AGF and they are processing the change in interest payment method and said he has marked the file over for 5 days and will talk to me then with an update. Of course, that's just about what the first guy I talked to back in mid December told me but I haven't been able to find him since then.

We'll see.

We still have two RIFs and a LIF with CIBC Investor's Edge. If I transferred any one of them to TD I could qualify for President's Account. In view of these problems with TDW, however, I am not prepared to do that.

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Post by gouthro » 19 Jan 2007 16:15

We still have two RIFs and a LIF with CIBC Investor's Edge. If I transferred any one of them to TD I could qualify for President's Account. In view of these problems with TDW, however, I am not prepared to do that.
As I said earlier, I would tend to go for the president's account, if you have other accounts that you can bring in for no cost. That being said, however, what you have will qualify for the "Royal Circle" at RBC, and with this you get a special telephone number where the agents are usually more competent, polite and with it, in general, than the regular telephone agents. They always give you their name and extension, thus, there is no difficulty to follow up. i found them to be very good. Now, other kinds of problems continue to happen, of course, but they will usually follow the problem to the end and resolve it quickly
Joe

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Post by jiHymas » 19 Jan 2007 16:25

Bylo Selhi wrote:Failing that, work your way up the food chain.
I never bother with any company's fancy procedures. As soon as I need to write a letter to get something fixed, it goes to the CEO. Let his office worry about what stage of escalation it's at.
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Post by soccerdude » 19 Jan 2007 16:27

gouthro wrote:
We still have two RIFs and a LIF with CIBC Investor's Edge. If I transferred any one of them to TD I could qualify for President's Account. In view of these problems with TDW, however, I am not prepared to do that.
As I said earlier, I would tend to go for the president's account, if you have other accounts that you can bring in for no cost. That being said, however, what you have will qualify for the "Royal Circle" at RBC.
Joe
I did qualify for the "ROYAL CIRCLE " service but still had to pay $ 29.95 per trade of 1000 shares and even more for additional shares above 1000 limit, same side, same day. :(

Do they still offer one free trade as a way of resolving a problem ?
Last edited by soccerdude on 19 Jan 2007 16:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by soccerdude » 19 Jan 2007 16:32

Donut wrote:Just prior to my last post I had called TDW one last time and asked what the fee was to transfer my entire account to another financial institution. Surprisingly it's only $100. Any bank will agree to pay that fee to get a new account of $400k.


We still have two RIFs and a LIF with CIBC Investor's Edge. If I transferred any one of them to TD I could qualify for President's Account. In view of these problems with TDW, however, I am not prepared to do that.
Now that CIBC is offering $ 7.90 trades it may be worth a look :wink:

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Post by Bylo Selhi » 19 Jan 2007 16:43

jiHymas wrote:
Bylo Selhi wrote:Failing that, work your way up the food chain.
I never bother with any company's fancy procedures. As soon as I need to write a letter to get something fixed, it goes to the CEO. Let his office worry about what stage of escalation it's at.
That works too as I've pointed out here and there.

However I recently had two problems with another bank, CIBC. In one case I was encouraged to use their ombudsman's office. I tried that and was so impressed with the results that I then gave them first crack on my second problem and got equally impressive results. That's why I suggested TD's ombudsman's office rather than Dr Ed or John See (if he's even still around.)
soccerdude wrote:Now that CIBC is offering $ 7.90 trades it may be worth a look :wink:
That $7.90 is providing you've paid $395 per account for a package of 50 trades (that's good for only one year.)
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Post by soccerdude » 19 Jan 2007 16:54

That $7.90 is providing you've paid $395 per account for a package of 50 trades (that's good for only one year.)
You are correct, in the past I have usually traded more than that so it didn't seem an issue, but for someone that trades less it is certainly an important point. :oops:

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TD Waterhouse

Post by j831robert » 19 Jan 2007 22:42

Bruce Cohen
You're not missing anyting except my poor explaination.

Here's a Step by Step:

30 Nov: Madame held 1221.315 units of TD Equity

21 Dec TDW paid CapGns of $4.8911 per unit - $5,973.62 (TDW's Figure) and purchased 202.711 addnl units for her account @ $29.4599 each. Total units now held 1424.086. NOTE: No sale of units indicated to cover mandatory withdrawal amount.

29 Dec TDW End of Month Statement indicates 1424.086 units TD Equity Fund held. Also indicates a cash deficit against the account in the amount of the mandatory withdrawal which had been forwarded by ETF to my wife's bank account.

15 Jan 07, Beancounters 'You Owe Us' letter arrives.

17 Jan (Assumed). 117.0699 units sold @ 29.75 to cover deficit cash amount (.82 cents already in account).

18 Jan (Assumed). Balance of Equity Fund units held now 1307.016.

Of passing interest. If the sale of units had taken place on Dec 21st as requested the unit balance now would be 1305.835 so she's ahead $35 or so. Still, a hell of a way to run a railroad !

Bruce, I do appreciate your interest and your excellent examples - sent me back to check my figures again.

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Re: TD Waterhouse

Post by IdOp » 19 Jan 2007 22:55

j831robert wrote:... so she's ahead $35 or so.
But, won't TD-W be applying an interest charge to penalize the negative cash balance from the time of the payout until the equity fund sale settled :?:

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Re: TD Waterhouse

Post by brucecohen » 20 Jan 2007 08:43

IdOp wrote:
j831robert wrote:... so she's ahead $35 or so.
But, won't TD-W be applying an interest charge to penalize the negative cash balance from the time of the payout until the equity fund sale settled :?:
Probably not. There have been several times when I had debit balances in my RBC RRSP and was not dunned. Could be they don't both if:

-- the debit is covered before the next statement date; and/or

-- the interest due is less than $10.

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TD Waterhouse

Post by j831robert » 20 Jan 2007 11:29

Checking last year's record I find an entry of 57 cents Interest Paid into Madame's Registered Account as of the date in January they finally were able to remove the debit amount. Go figure !!

Bottom line is, it was their failure to action a sale instruction which caused all the difficulty - if they choose to charge interest to cover their error we'll be 'outta there' stat !

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Post by sydney2 » 20 Jan 2007 12:35

I have dealt with TDW for a lot of years 40 or so... and have found their service to be terrific. Any inquiry has been dealt with quickly and always with a great customer service attitude. Now we have access to the President's Line people, it is even better. I thought of switching to RBC when they had the recent cash offer for transfers in,but didn't want the hassle.

We have 5 accounts with them, plus my Daughter's and Mother's brokerage accounts, that I trade on, for a total of 7 accounts and they are all linked and there is never a problem. They must have a terrific training program for their people because they really know how to treat their customers. Sorry you have had a problem....

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Re: TD Waterhouse

Post by jiHymas » 20 Jan 2007 12:48

BruceCohen wrote:Probably not. There have been several times when I had debit balances in my RBC RRSP and was not dunned. Could be they don't both if:

-- the debit is covered before the next statement date; and/or

-- the interest due is less than $10.
I stand ready to be corrected, but I remember from my back-office days that interest was never, ever charged to RRSP accounts.

It's illegal for them to go into debit, therefore illegal for interest to be charged (or, at least, such was my understanding at the time). It certainly gives incentive to back office / compliance / the salesman to get debits cleared up!
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