Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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scomac
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Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

Post by scomac »

Ontario to spend $7-billion in sweeping climate change plan.
The Ontario government will spend more than $7-billion over four years on a sweeping climate change plan that will affect every aspect of life – from what people drive to how they heat their homes and workplaces – in a bid to slash the province’s carbon footprint.

Ontario will begin phasing out natural gas for heating, provide incentives to retrofit buildings and give rebates to drivers who buy electric vehicles. It will also require that gasoline sold in the province contain less carbon, bring in building code rules requiring all new homes by 2030 to be heated with electricity or geothermal systems, and set a target for 12 per cent of all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2025.

While such policies are likely to be popular with ecoconscious voters, who will now receive government help to green their lives, they are certain to cause mass disruption for the province’s automotive and energy sectors, which will have to make significant changes to the way they do business. And they have already created tension within the government between Environment Minister Glen Murray and some of his fellow ministers who worry he is going too far.
ISTM that a massive plan promoting the switch to electric heat was in place in the 1960's. That didn't worked out so well. Nothing like legislating a switch back to electric use, without any of the supporting infrastructure in place. And who will pay? Oh yes, that would be you and I. It's not like the province has a debt problem in the first place!

Perhaps the policy wonks have decided that snatching victory from almost sure defeat twice in a row means the public is ready for such measures. Talk about living in a bubble! :evil:
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

Post by HardWorker »

scomac wrote:
And who will pay? Oh yes, that would be you and I.

Let them eat cake.


I love the fact they're spending millions on promoting expansion of NG lines, at the same time they're planning on eliminating it. Way to go Ontario.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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This sounds like a repeat of our fiasco with Ontario Hydro. These guys are incompetent boobs. Glad I live in Alberta. But still have to pay exorbitant electricity rates at the cottage.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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I just finished a hearing in front of the Ontario Energy Board as to how best to extend natural gas to communities who don't currently have access to natural gas. This was all happening pursuing to a mandate letter to the OEB from the Minister asking it to find ways to make it happen.

But fear not. Communities without natural gas are currently using oil, propane, and wood. Yup, in the twenty-first century, we still have communities that rely on wood for home heating.

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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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...phasing out natural gas for heating, provide incentives to retrofit buildings... bring in building code rules requiring all new homes by 2030 to be heated with electricity or geothermal systems...
$3.8-billion for new grants, rebates and other subsidies to retrofit buildings, and move them off natural gas and onto geothermal, solar power or other forms of electric heat...
New building code rules that will require all homes and small buildings built in 2030 or later to be heated without using fossil fuels, such as natural gas. This will be expanded to all buildings before 2050. Other building code changes will require major renovations to include energy-efficiency measures. All homes will also have to undergo an energy-efficiency audit before they are sold.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e30029081/

No natural gas - all electrical?? These guys must be from another (warmer) planet. Maybe that's it, maybe they think we won't need to heat our homes in Ontario by 2050 due to climate change?
Sounds like a booming economy in incentives, subsidies, bureacracy, and inspection. Glad I won't be here.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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ghariton wrote: But fear not. Communities without natural gas are currently using oil, propane, and wood. Yup, in the twenty-first century, we still have communities that rely on wood for home heating.

Yup. Wood burning is not only alive and well, but it's a necessity. We're barely outside of the GTA, about 4 KMs from where NG lines end, and we have no hopes of ever getting hooked up. I don't have a wood furnace or stove, but 90% of the homes in this area do.

The ink has barely dried on this news release, and now they're doing a complete 180? It's like the idiots have no idea on the quickest way to bankrupt us. Ontario Expanding Natural Gas Service to More Communities

OnlyMyOpinion wrote: No natural gas - all electrical?? These guys must be from another (warmer) planet. Maybe that's it, maybe they think we won't need to heat our homes in Ontario by 2050 due to climate change?

No. They live in homes filled by politicians and surrounded by politicians. A scientific research has found the BTU in hot air from a politician equals that of natural gas. The current gang of idiots emit more gas than the deepest well in the world can ever provide.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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HardWorker wrote:
ghariton wrote: But fear not. Communities without natural gas are currently using oil, propane, and wood. Yup, in the twenty-first century, we still have communities that rely on wood for home heating.
Yup. Wood burning is not only alive and well, but it's a necessity. We're barely outside of the GTA, about 4 KMs from where NG lines end, and we have no hopes of ever getting hooked up. I don't have a wood furnace or stove, but 90% of the homes in this area do.
We got a wood stove in 2005, and it provides most of our heat. We got free wood from my MIL's woodlot for the first 7-8 years, but last year we bought a transport load of wood for $900. It lasted 2 years.

I just checked, and since we got the wood stove our average cost to heat the house has been $1,254/year. This includes the cost of our wood. Without the stove I suspect it would have been twice that amount.

A bonus is that when there's a fire burning it's toasty warm. A furnace can't compete with that.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Geothermal? you have to be kidding. Very expensive . I hear from people in the know that it is in the 30k region. In Alberta there are a fair number of people who went that route and returned to NG. I am amazed with the hostility towards NG. It produces much lower levels of CO2 then gasoline, diesel or coal. The hostility to the auto industry is puzzling. Isn't the auto industry a key part of the Ontario economy. The NDP should fold their tent this government is far to the left of the dippers.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Jo Anne wrote: We got a wood stove in 2005, and it provides most of our heat. We got free wood from my MIL's woodlot for the first 7-8 years, but last year we bought a transport load of wood for $900. It lasted 2 years.

I just checked, and since we got the wood stove our average cost to heat the house has been $1,254/year. This includes the cost of our wood. Without the stove I suspect it would have been twice that amount.

A bonus is that when there's a fire burning it's toasty warm. A furnace can't compete with that.


Have you thought about a wood boiler? With gasification, they sure have amazing efficiency and burn much cleaner with less maintenance. I'd have to buy the wood, which makes it not as attractive, but once my oil furnace gets closer to the end, I might opt for wood instead of oil. That is if the inept and corrupt queen has banned everything.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Thegipper wrote:Geothermal? you have to be kidding. Very expensive . I hear from people in the know that it is in the 30k region.
A neighbour got one 5 years ago. With incentives as the time, he shelled out 22 grand. He regrets his decision already. The massive electricity rate increases has erased every hope he had to save money, and it's only getting worst. He kept his wood fireplace as a back up, but now uses it regularly. AND, all of this is with a newer system that hasn't broken down yet. From what I've read, repairs can be extremely expensive, and not every HVAC company is equipped to deal with them.


I am amazed with the hostility towards NG. It produces much lower levels of CO2 then gasoline, diesel or coal. The hostility to the auto industry is puzzling. Isn't the auto industry a key part of the Ontario economy.

Not only is NG cleaner burning, but it's also domestic and abundant. We're not filling the pockets of troubled regions of the world that pillage their own people, and we're not spending billions in the US to refine the oil. We're creating jobs in Canada. This government is very much against job creation and stability, unless it's their own people.

I don't know who needs a mental examination more. These idiots that have gone off the deep end? Or the voters that voted them back in?


EDIT: I'm also not sure about heat pumps. The technology has made some good strides in the last while, but with electricity prices going to the moon, I don't think the math looks that good either.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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HardWorker wrote:
Jo Anne wrote: We got a wood stove in 2005, and it provides most of our heat. We got free wood from my MIL's woodlot for the first 7-8 years, but last year we bought a transport load of wood for $900. It lasted 2 years.

I just checked, and since we got the wood stove our average cost to heat the house has been $1,254/year. This includes the cost of our wood. Without the stove I suspect it would have been twice that amount.

A bonus is that when there's a fire burning it's toasty warm. A furnace can't compete with that.


Have you thought about a wood boiler? With gasification, they sure have amazing efficiency and burn much cleaner with less maintenance. I'd have to buy the wood, which makes it not as attractive, but once my oil furnace gets closer to the end, I might opt for wood instead of oil. That is if the inept and corrupt queen has banned everything.
A wood boiler doesn't interest me at all. Our wood stove is in our kitchen/family room, which is where we spend 95% of our waking hours. I like the coziness of the wood fire, and as a bonus, if the power goes out we can heat up water, soup, etc on the stove.

Our oil furnace is about 8 years old, but the oil tank is closer to 14. We are waiting for our insurance company to tell us we have to replace the tank, and at that point we're going to switch to propane.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

Post by gobsmack »

This reminds me of the claim put forward by The Solutions Project (http://thesolutionsproject.org). They claim Canada can shift to 100% use of wind, hydro, solar for everything (including heating) by 2050. Considering they did not add nuclear into the mix, the claim seemed pretty far-fetched to me. I wanted to see their calculations but all I could find was this: http://thesolutionsproject.org/wp-conte ... nada-1.pdf.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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HardWorker wrote:
Thegipper wrote:Geothermal? you have to be kidding. Very expensive . I hear from people in the know that it is in the 30k region.
A neighbour got one 5 years ago. With incentives as the time, he shelled out 22 grand. He regrets his decision already. The massive electricity rate increases has erased every hope he had to save money, and it's only getting worst. He kept his wood fireplace as a back up, but now uses it regularly. AND, all of this is with a newer system that hasn't broken down yet. From what I've read, repairs can be extremely expensive, and not every HVAC company is equipped to deal with them.
.
Give geothermal a break. Not endorsing mandated geothermal, but here is my situation.
4000 sq ft house (if you include basement) built 2010 in NB. No NG in our area. HVAC geothermal unit (vertical loop) cost approx 35K, includes HRV and some other custom ducting.
Electric bills in winter have never been over $200, which includes heat, hot water, lights, water (well), etc. Electricity is our only utility as we have our own well & septic. Bills in summer never >$100.
May have had high up-front costs, but low cost to operate & no maintenance costs so far (no annual cleaning & 10 year full coverage on unit). As well, most comfortable house I have ever lived in - temp never varies by more than 0.5 degrees, no cold spots, etc (cold return in every room) and it is super quiet no matter how nasty it is outside (even at -40 in a blizzard unit had no issues).
Efficiency is 5.5 (produces 5.5 units of heat for every $ spent compared to an electric heater).
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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bcjmmac wrote:
HardWorker wrote:
Thegipper wrote:Geothermal? you have to be kidding. Very expensive . I hear from people in the know that it is in the 30k region.
A neighbour got one 5 years ago. With incentives as the time, he shelled out 22 grand. He regrets his decision already. The massive electricity rate increases has erased every hope he had to save money, and it's only getting worst. He kept his wood fireplace as a back up, but now uses it regularly. AND, all of this is with a newer system that hasn't broken down yet. From what I've read, repairs can be extremely expensive, and not every HVAC company is equipped to deal with them.
.
Give geothermal a break. Not endorsing mandated geothermal, but here is my situation.
4000 sq ft house (if you include basement) built 2010 in NB. No NG in our area. HVAC geothermal unit (vertical loop) cost approx 35K, includes HRV and some other custom ducting.
Electric bills in winter have never been over $200, which includes heat, hot water, lights, water (well), etc. Electricity is our only utility as we have our own well & septic. Bills in summer never >$100.
May have had high up-front costs, but low cost to operate & no maintenance costs so far (no annual cleaning & 10 year full coverage on unit). As well, most comfortable house I have ever lived in - temp never varies by more than 0.5 degrees, no cold spots, etc (cold return in every room) and it is super quiet no matter how nasty it is outside (even at -40 in a blizzard unit had no issues).
Efficiency is 5.5 (produces 5.5 units of heat for every $ spent compared to an electric heater).
Try doing that in a city of 5 million or a city like Ottawa that sits on heavy rock formations.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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bcjmmac wrote: Electric bills in winter have never been over $200

Tell me how many kWH and I'll tell you how much your bill will be in Ontario.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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This topic has been split. Keep the political swipes out of this thread. If you prefer the latter, go to the political thread in Watercooler
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Wynne steps back from plan to phase out natural gas in Ontario - The Globe and Mail

That was one of the stupider most ill thought out aspects of the draft plan.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Shakespeare wrote:Wynne steps back from plan to phase out natural gas in Ontario - The Globe and Mail

That was one of the stupider most ill thought out aspects of the draft plan.
A trial balloon made of lead... :roll:
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Do we know if it was a trial balloon as these sometimes are, or the bona fide plan and a disgruntled insider. Reports spoke of internal dissension. I think the bu**ers intended to tie the lead balloon around everyone's ankle and set it free :(
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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You have to read between the lines. No, they won't ban natural gas heating - that is not doable.

However.....in typical Wynne fashion, watch for building codes to change such that homes (and buildings) will have to meet certain greenhouse gas emission requirements.....which will only be possible with non-emitting fuel heat. i.e. ELECTRICITY! Wynne is all-in for electrical power, regardless of cost. She can't/won't bring the price down.....and so she must find ways to increase usage. Cars; heating; and whatever else she can find. The fix is in......
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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I don't think much of this 'manipulated converstion to electrons' will come to pass. The key actions are way past the next election, and at least another beyond that. There has been no real thought put into it. For example, Norway found it had to make significant investments in generation and transmission just to handle the 'twisted arm' trend to higher concentrations of electric cars. Subsidies for electric cars have been substantially curtailed. This is mostly a case of idealists not thinking of the domino effect.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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iluvnascar wrote:You have to read between the lines. No, they won't ban natural gas heating - that is not doable.

However.....in typical Wynne fashion, watch for building codes to change such that homes (and buildings) will have to meet certain greenhouse gas emission requirements.....which will only be possible with non-emitting fuel heat. i.e. ELECTRICITY! Wynne is all-in for electrical power, regardless of cost. She can't/won't bring the price down.....and so she must find ways to increase usage. Cars; heating; and whatever else she can find. The fix is in......
Completely agree.

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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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AltaRed wrote:I don't think much of this 'manipulated conversion to electrons' will come to pass. The key actions are way past the next election....
You are assuming Wynne's government won't win the next election. They will. If incompetence was a factor, they wouldn't have won the last election and they did - quite handily. So you have to assume Toronto will vote her in the next time. The same goes for McGuinty the times before that.
AltaRed wrote:There has been no real thought put into it.
Yeah, for sure. Read above.

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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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I was referring to the 2030 reference point. Wynne and the Libs will be gone by then. At least 3? elections between now and then? The question wil be whether a wad of money in electrical infrastructure will be spent before the Libs are kicked out getting ready for this 'massive' demand on electricity. Saner minds might prevail by 2025 or so.
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Re: Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan

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Sometimes I have a hard time trying to figure out the entrenchment of the McWynne Liberals and their policies in particular the fiasco of the energy file. Then I remember that the opposition parties, particularly the PCs, have had a lot to do with voter malaise. Politics is a fickle thing. One only has to look at the recent swings at the federal level and in some other provinces.
:? but hopeful that the next election will produce a different result and a reversal to some realistic agendas. In the meanwhile we're stuck with the carbon taxes, rising electricity rates ...
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