Public Sector Salary Disclosure

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Descartes
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Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by Descartes »

The annual spring Ontario Sunshine List of public sector workers earning $100,000 a year (or more) was released today.
CBC article

Actual list

A cause for biting knuckles and cursing for some private sector people, I personally find puerile interest in comparing my salary with some of my former professors and the principals at my kids' schools...
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OhGreatGuru »

There are a couple of problems with this list. The main one is that "salary" is defined as total (taxable) earned income. That's why the list always includes a lot of people who work paid overtime. It gives the impression that wage rates are too high for some occupations, when the problem is really management of overtime.

A smaller problem is that the $100K bar hasn't change since the law was passed in 1996. If you adjusted it for CPI, it should have gone up to $138K at the end of 2013.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by parvus »

I dunno, given that the median income in Canada is $29,000, and the threshold for the top 10% begins at $64,000 ... the sunshine list covers those who are in the top 2.5%, more or less. (The top 1% begins at roughly $230,000).

I'm in favour of greater transparency, rather than have stuff and things buried deep in the bowels of the bureaucracy. I'd like to know who my masters are to hold them responsible ... and ask whether they deserve the pay they get for bossing me around, or creating situations with unintended consequences that screw up my life. :wink:
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OhGreatGuru »

"Median Individual Income" per Stats Can is irrelevant in the context of average wages for the gainfully employed.
The "Individuals" cover all persons who completed a T1 tax return for the year of reference or who received CCTB (Canada Child Tax Benefits), their non-filing spouses (including wage and salary information from the T4 file), their non-filing children identified from three sources (the CCTB file, the births files, and an historical file) and filing children who reported the same address as their parent.

A more relevant figure is:
"The average wage for Canadian employees is currently $928 per week – or just about $48,250 a year"

http://www.workopolis.com/content/advic ... right-now/
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by parvus »

That's average, not median. :wink:
Of course, if the average hourly wage in Canada is $25 an hour, why the fuss about raising the minimum to $14? Who's going to notice? And why would they? The above-average will most likely have wages increasing more than those of the below-average and whilst there may be more of the below-average than the above-average, a modest increase in their waged income is hardly going to put a dent in the great soaring piles of wages the above-average earn. Wealth may not exactly trickle down, but at least it keeps our averages up. :geek:

It would be nice if StatsCan data were more transparent. Median household incomes, median after-tax incomes -- all have their place. But if you can't distinguish between median and average workplace earnings, essentially you've skewed the average well ahead of the median. Hardly a reasonable basis for public policy, if 10%er workplace earnings are going to fat-tail the whole sample.

We know, for example, that median income in Canada is $29,000. Unfortunately, that groups together everybody, regardless of working status -- retired, on social assistance, working -- and after-tax. In this context, an average wage of $48,000 is next to useless.

On the other hand, if StatsCan insists on using average wages, which in turn feed into CPP calculations, then why not lift the cap on contribution thresholds? Indeed, why not lift them on EI thresholds as well? This could well lead to better payouts on CPP and EI for the average working stiff -- since there would be more money in the kitty, as long as you are comfortable telling the above-average to bugger off. Because, while contributions may be linked to averages, payouts are determined by a different formula.

This may sound absurd, as a way of making the (relatively) rich pay, but it's certainly being considered as a means to buttress Social Security in the U.S. (Actually the contribution limit for SS is more than twice as high as it is for CPP.)

I pay good taxes for appropriate disclosure. Time for StatsCan to get on the bus. Many a person has drowned in a river whose average depth was three inches. :ugeek:
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by ig17 »

Ontario’s Sunshine List 2017: All the ways you never thought you could make $100,000 a year
  • Lunchroom Supervisor: Wai Loo at the Toronto District School Board, earning $111,949.67
  • Janitor: Michael Osso at Ontario Power Generation, earning 105,562.17
  • Manager, Caribou Conservation: Hilary Gignac at the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry, earning $103,859.63
  • Stage carpenter: Will Sutton at Ryerson University, earning 102,818.48
  • Utility Person “A”: Jeff Cline at the City of Kitchener, earning $117,536.43
  • Manager, Parliamentary Protocol: John Anderson at the Legislative Assembly, earning $102,482.49
  • Manager, 89 Chestnut residence: Paul Readings at the University of Toronto, earning $135,061.06
  • Ethicist: Paula Majorie Chidwick at William Osler Health System, earning $161,908.38 (That’s the highest of any medical ethicist in Ontario)
  • Manager, Non-Bargaining Job Evaluation Initiatives: Anna Li Preti at the Ministry of Government and Consumer Services, earning $112,719.73
  • Executive Director, Gift-Planning: Karen Bertrand at the University of Toronto, earning $164,738.23
  • Manager of Basic Training: Charlotte Primeau at the Collège Boréal, earning $118,146.08
  • Microsoft Domain Administration: Mayuresh Wagle at Legal Aid Ontario, earning $105,994.78
  • Transit Body Person: Rob Martin at the Regional Municipality of Durham, earning $101,528.26
  • Petrographer: Carole A. MacDonald at the Ministry of Transportation, earning $102,631.10 (A petrographer is someone who studies the subtle details in rocks)
  • Vascular Access Coordinator: Darya Zevart at the William Osler Health System, earning $106,793.76
  • General Machinist: Mark Hao at the Toronto Transit Commission, earning $104,712.50
  • Polygraph Examiner: Stephen Coburn at the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, earning $140,602.22 (That’s the highest salary of the province’s three examiners)
  • Translator: Jean-Yves Asselin at Laurentian University, earning $105,556.65
  • Editor-in-Chief, Rotman Management Magazine: Karen Christensen of the University of Toronto, earning $170,529.32
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by Flaccidsteele »

^ I wonder which one of those involves the least amount of work. Ethicist? Petographer?
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

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parvus wrote: 07 Apr 2014 20:37Of course, if the average hourly wage in Canada is $25 an hour, why the fuss about raising the minimum to $14? Who's going to notice? And why would they?
Because when you raise the minimum wage, you're not just raising the wage at the very bottom of the scale, you're moving the whole scale upwards. If you have a worker who's been there for a year, and has earned a couple of raises, and now makes $14, then you raise the minimum wage to $14/hour, that person is probably not going to be very happy about suddenly making minimum wage again. With having earned raises, and paid their dues as a loyal employee, how would they feel about a fresh, new hire making the same wage as them, right out of the gate?

This is what many people don't understand about raising the minimum wage. It has a ripple-up effect that makes it much more costly than it may initially appear.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by izzy »

The problem with this sort of list is that the job designations are often (intentionally?) very ambiguous.I doubt that a janitor making over a hundred grand would only be doing janitorial work (without other responsibilities ) for instance!
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by SQRT »

Might be time to raise the threshold for disclosure?
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by kombat »

It's been suggested, and subsequently dismissed.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by SQRT »

kombat wrote: 03 Apr 2017 11:17 It's been suggested, and subsequently dismissed.
Right, Ms Wynne has enough on her plate at the moment, I suspect.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OnlyMyOpinion »

If anyone comes upon a spreadsheet (xls) version of the latest list, I'd appreciate a post.
In past years, complete lists have become available from various sources at various times.
(ascribe it to those of us who like doing our own slicing and dicing during weather-bound days).
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OhGreatGuru »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 03 Apr 2017 00:42 ^ I wonder which one of those involves the least amount of work. Ethicist? Petographer?
A petrographer is a skilled laboratory analyst. The term has been broadened to include analysis of aggregate, asphalt and concrete durability, not just natural rock. Hence the involvement of DoT.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OhGreatGuru »

As noted by others, the job titles in the list are often misleading. Most "Lunchroom supervisors" for example are casual employees paid ~$15/hr for an hour a day. Wai Loo must have another full-time job with the school board.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by OhGreatGuru »

As another example of how the $100K threshold has not kept pace with inflation, the pay scale for Engineer 4 in the federal public service has now passed $100K. This is the full working level of an engineer, but not an engineering manager, which would be ENG5 or ENG6. Except in the years when government arbitrarily froze salaries, the federal Engineering pay scales have generally followed the average for all salaried engineers in Ontario. The pay scales are public information. If I were still working I would very much resent having my name and pay published in the papers for the information of nosey neighbours and every begging organization and con artist in the country.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by Flaccidsteele »

OhGreatGuru wrote: 03 Apr 2017 12:46 As another example of how the $100K threshold has not kept pace with inflation, the pay scale for Engineer 4 in the federal public service has now passed $100K. This is the full working level of an engineer, but not an engineering manager, which would be ENG5 or ENG6. Except in the years when government arbitrarily froze salaries, the federal Engineering pay scales have generally followed the average for all salaried engineers in Ontario. The pay scales are public information. If I were still working I would very much resent having my name and pay published in the papers for the information of nosey neighbours and every begging organization and con artist in the country.
Is your implication that, since one has to disclose income, working for the government as an Engineer is disadvantaged compared to working as an Engineer in the private sector?
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by ig17 »

SQRT wrote: 03 Apr 2017 10:54 Might be time to raise the threshold for disclosure?
Why? 100K is still a ton of money. Plenty of highly skilled, highly educated people make less than that in the private sector.

For example...

Senior Software Engineer
National average: $94.5K

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/canad ... KO7,31.htm
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by kombat »

ig17 wrote: 03 Apr 2017 21:30
SQRT wrote: 03 Apr 2017 10:54 Might be time to raise the threshold for disclosure?
Why? 100K is still a ton of money. Plenty of highly skilled, highly educated people make less than that in the private sector.
And even less in the public sector. The salary scale for a CS-02 (computer programmer) with my employer maxes out around "only" $82k. CS-03s don't actually write any code, they're more like project managers.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by ig17 »

kombat wrote: 04 Apr 2017 07:02 And even less in the public sector. The salary scale for a CS-02 (computer programmer) with my employer maxes out around "only" $82k. CS-03s don't actually write any code, they're more like project managers.
Shall we compare pension benefits? Paid overtime in the public sector vs. unpaid in the private?
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

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ig17 wrote: 04 Apr 2017 08:19Shall we compare pension benefits?
Sure, go for it. I had $300 taken off my last (2 week) paycheck for my pension, or roughly 10% of my gross (not net) pay. How about the private sector fellow earning $94.5K?
ig17 wrote: 04 Apr 2017 08:19Paid overtime in the public sector vs. unpaid in the private?
LOL! "Paid overtime," good one.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by SQRT »

ig17 wrote: 03 Apr 2017 21:30
SQRT wrote: 03 Apr 2017 10:54 Might be time to raise the threshold for disclosure?
Why? 100K is still a ton of money. Plenty of highly skilled, highly educated people make less than that in the private sector.

For example...

Senior Software Engineer
National average: $94.5K

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/canad ... KO7,31.htm
Because the volume of disclosure swamps the usefulness of such. The initial intent of the disclosure was to disclose (like companies do) the pay of the senior people. When the disclosure catches so many people it loses its impact, IMHO.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by big easy »

Why is it necessary to publish the names of people in the public service. Would an employee number not suffice. Would you like your name and salary published all over the internet? I didn't think so.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by AltaRed »

The threshold should probably go up with CPI as OGG suggested. $100k is not a huge amount of money though the average family income in Canada would think otherwise. OTOH, $138k is a pretty significant sum. Especially when this is only wages and overtime (I think), and does not include other salary burden benefits such as generous employer DB pension contributions, etc.

I see no reason why 'high paid' folks on the public teat shouldn't be disclosed. They are technically serving at the bequest of the taxpayer and it seems only fair that anyone potentially 'free riding' should technically feel some heat along the way. Hence names are necessary. If one doesn't want their name published, don't work in the public sector.
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Re: Public Sector Salary Disclosure

Post by big easy »

AltaRed wrote: 04 Apr 2017 15:45 The threshold should probably go up with CPI as OGG suggested. $100k is not a huge amount of money though the average family income in Canada would think otherwise. OTOH, $138k is a pretty significant sum. Especially when this is only wages and overtime (I think), and does not include other salary burden benefits such as generous employer DB pension contributions, etc.

I see no reason why 'high paid' folks on the public teat shouldn't be disclosed. They are technically serving at the bequest of the taxpayer and it seems only fair that anyone potentially 'free riding' should technically feel some heat along the way. Hence names are necessary. If one doesn't want their name published, don't work in the public sector.
It's one thing to take issue with public sector salaries and another to personally identify people and publish their salaries. I find it distasteful and no I'm not on the list.
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