Greece

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kenwood
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Greece

Post by kenwood »

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1555873/

I have been puzzled by the protests going on at Greece. The country almost went bankrupt, and cutting spending and increasing tax seems to be the most logical solution. During an economic downturn, many people lose their job. A salary reduction is far better than losing the job. Can someone enlighten me why these people are protesting?
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

kenwood wrote:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1555873/

I have been puzzled by the protests going on at Greece. The country almost went bankrupt, and cutting spending and increasing tax seems to be the most logical solution. During an economic downturn, many people lose their job. A salary reduction is far better than losing the job. Can someone enlighten me why these people are protesting?
Because they feel 'entitled to their entitlements'?
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Shakespeare
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Re: Greece

Post by Shakespeare »

So the Greek government collapses, Greece defaults, and we have another banking crisis.

It's happened before with other countries, and will happen again. :roll:
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Re: Greece

Post by brucecohen »

Nemo's right. For decades (at least) the Greek govt has been corrupt and lackadaisical, and unions have been much too strong. Public employees were vastly overpaid, the underground market was a sizeable part of the private sector and officials turned a blind eye to rampant tax cheating. Because this went on for so long, people came to accept it as the normal way of life. Complicating this is enormous concentration of wealth in a relatively small class. Several Greeks have told radio interviewers that they see no reason to sacrifice themselves when the rich aren't sacrificing anything.

The reality is that Greeks have no choice. While I've heard some ordinary Greeks say the country should simply default, I doubt that they understand the repercussions of that. The govt might actually welcome the protests and general strike as a way for the public to let off steam before the cutbacks begin.
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Re: Greece

Post by Shurville »

How did they ever get accepted into the EEC in the first place. Must be lax entry requirements!
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

Shurville wrote:How did they ever get accepted into the EEC in the first place. Must be lax entry requirements!
How's Turkey's entry application going?
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Re: Greece

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Shurville wrote:How did they ever get accepted into the EEC in the first place.
You obviously mean the EU and the Euro Zone.

They lied and they cheated. As observed by Bruce "the Greek govt has been corrupt and lackadaisical, and unions have been much too strong. Public employees were vastly overpaid, the underground market was a sizeable part of the private sector and officials turned a blind eye to rampant tax cheating."

Helping them were those upstanding citizens of Wall St.

Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis
One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.
Now that the shit has hit the fan the money men are at it again with their rapacious appetites.

Wall Street’s game of risk with Greece
Greece’s bump came last week when European statistical authorities reported that Athens’s 2009 deficit was higher than the 12 percent forecast last fall: it was a perfect Headline Risk moment. Markets panicked and started dumping Greek bonds. Speculators who had quietly been buying credit default swaps — bets that panic would inevitably follow any bad news — made millions overnight.
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

CROCKD wrote:
Shurville wrote:How did they ever get accepted into the EEC in the first place.
You obviously mean the EU and the Euro Zone.
Greece's application for admission into the EEC was accepted May 24, 1979.

Obviously.
Last edited by Nemo2 on 04 May 2010 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
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CROCKD
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Re: Greece

Post by CROCKD »

Nemo2 wrote:Greece was admitted into the EEC May 24, 1979.
I stand corrected.
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

CROCKD wrote:
Nemo2 wrote:Greece was admitted into the EEC May 24, 1979.
I stand corrected.
And I revised my statement. :lol:
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Re: Greece

Post by CROCKD »

shurville wrote:How did they ever get accepted into the EEC in the first place. Must be lax entry requirements!
There's probably no truth to the rumour that they went to Brussels with the gift of a large wooden horse.
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Re: Greece

Post by j831robert »

How can they protest - just note the flags they fly - a large glob of communism complete with hammer and sicle (the State owes me and I shouldn't have to work for it). My bet is that the country will slip into anarchy fairly rapidly. I'm a gambler but I wouldn't waste a penny on the willingness of any of the major european politians to bite the necessary bullets (and I am fairly certain that our Paul Martin has been over there repeatedly by invitation to point out the only way to solvency). Any takers at odds ?
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Re: Greece

Post by Armi »

Too bad they bailed them out. They should just bankrupt. Now the Euro is worth less now, well atleast now my dad's company's business trips to Europe are a lot cheaper :)
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Re: Greece

Post by rhenderson »

Another example of the pitfalls of socialism ? I would let them fail and move on from here, might just as well face reality now and move on.

Perhaps there's a lesson in this for Canada before it's too late ?

Imo, as it now stands the future for all Canadians is very bleak. It is especially bad for Ontario and Quebec. Right now many of us pay more in taxes than we do for food,shelter and clothing. :cry:

None of the politicians that we elect will make any hard choices at all. They only think of their own skins and re-election to the Public Trough for more of those entitlements and gold plated pensions. :evil:
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Re: Greece

Post by rhenderson »

Message to Greece..

Socialism was a lot of fun wasn't it ? Well, now it's time to pay the bill. :shock:

Who was it that said "Socialism is a wonderful experience until you run out of other people's money."
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

rhenderson wrote:Who was it that said "Socialism is a wonderful experience until you run out of other people's money."
Attributed to Maggie Thatcher, I believe.
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Re: Greece

Post by marty123 »

Nemo2 wrote:
rhenderson wrote:Who was it that said "Socialism is a wonderful experience until you run out of other people's money."
Attributed to Maggie Thatcher, I believe.
Yep. It was her: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".
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Re: Greece

Post by shanti06 »

Though I sympathize those (honest,non-union?) Greeks who have to pay more than their fair share of the price, I am more concerned about the extent of the damage.
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Re: Greece

Post by parvus »

Never one to let an irony go to waste, :wink: ISTM that when, in Greece, you argue for "taxing the rich," you're actually talking about taxing the pensions, salaries and quondam benfits of tenured civil servants ... since no one else fesses up to any taxes at all.

The rich, whence should come all tax receipts, like unicorns, exist mostly in legend; but there are many horses and donkeys and mules, stubbornly baulking at paying their fair share ...
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adrian2
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Re: Greece

Post by adrian2 »

parvus wrote:Never one to let an irony go to waste, :wink: ISTM that when, in Greece, you argue for "taxing the rich," you're actually talking about taxing the pensions, salaries and quondam benfits of tenured civil servants ... since no one else fesses up to any taxes at all.
One quarter of the Greek workforce is employed by their government and their annual bonus equals two months of salary.
In Greece you get a bonus for showing up for work. Arcane benefits add billions to Greece’s bloated budget
The Red Star, of all newspapers, wrote:In a system where bonuses can add 5 to 1,300 euros to a monthly paycheck, some civil servants are paid extra for using a computer. Some get a bonus for speaking a foreign language and others for arriving at work on time, while many foresters get a bonus for working outdoors. All Greek public and private sector workers get 14 monthly salary payments a year, a structure aimed at keeping basic monthly salaries, and the pensions that are based on them, low.

Half a month’s extra salary is paid at Easter and another half during the summer. The 14th salary is paid to civil servants at Christmas when the whole economy is geared to consuming it. Taxis, restaurants and hairdressers are legally allowed to charge extra as a “Christmas present.”
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Re: Greece

Post by WishingWealth »

At first sight that looks reasonable to me:

Luigi Zingales @ City Journal. http://city-journal.org/2010/eon0507lz.html

A Better Plan for Greece
A restructuring, not a bailout

It seems like déjà vu: using fear, a political leader pushes down the throats of violently opposed voters an expensive bailout plan that benefits banks. That description applies not only to U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson in 2008 but also to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in 2010. Make no mistake: the €110 billion bailout plan, organized by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund and backed by Merkel and Sarkozy, is designed not to save Greece but to avoid painful losses to German and French banks, which hold massive amounts of Greek debt. According to Barclays’s estimates, French financial institutions hold €50 billion of Greek debt, while German ones hold €28 billion.
....
Here’s how it could work. The first thing Greece needs to restructure its public finances is time. So the initial step of a restructuring plan would be a forced extension of debt maturity by three years. This extension, amounting to a partial default, would saddle holders of debt issued by the Greek government with a 15 to 20 percent loss. Temporarily liberated from the need to refinance its debt, Greece would need only the money to finance its budget deficit, which it must bring down dramatically in the next few years. Any credible fiscal policy plan must shrink the budget deficit to €20 billion this year and €5 billion the following year. The International Monetary Fund would be in the best position to extend the €25 billion in loans to cover these deficits. The IMF could make the loans conditional on these deficit cuts’ being reached and could also make the loans senior to all the existing debt—as debtors in financing lending do in U.S. bankruptcy law—which would keep the funds from propping up the existing debt.
...
When easy money finds it does not have someone (governments) to backstop its every [dubious] moves, perhaps sanity will reign again.

WW
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Nemo2
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

WishingWealth wrote: When easy money finds it does not have someone (governments) to backstop its every [dubious] moves, perhaps sanity will reign again.
Geez, I hope so........getting awful tired of these days when the best that can be said at 4:00 o'clock is......"Well, we're not down as much as we could've been".
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Re: Greece

Post by apater »

kenwood wrote:Can someone enlighten me why these people are protesting?
Because the wealthy in Greece don't pay any taxes. Because Germany gets to export to Greece at preferred rates due to the euro (If Germany dropped out of the euro, their economy would go south quickly).
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Re: Greece

Post by Nemo2 »

apater wrote:(If Germany dropped out of the euro, their economy would go south quickly).
Germany's?
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