Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

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Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 14 May 2017 17:44

My assets are pretty liquid: stocks, TFSA and cash. I am supporting my wife financially. We have no children. I don't have a will, assuming my wife can inherit all of my assets by legal terms.

I want to make sure my wife's living is continuously supported in case something sudden is to happen to me to put me mentally/physically incapable or death. A will is only applicable at death and my assets will be frozen for a period of time and there's the probate fees, legal fees, etc.

I thought of Joint ownership with right of survivorship but don't want to take this route as it's easier to manage our finances separately now. Want to see if POA is a solution.

I trust my wife enough to give her full POA now. However, not sure if the following are what I understand them to be...

Scenario 1

As soon as the POA is granted (ie. I become mentally/physically incapable or not):

Is it legal for my wife to do anything to my accounts including paying down her credit card fees and withdraw money from my account for her own use? These are being done currently, only I am doing the transfer/withdrawal myself.

Say, can my parents put a case against my wife suing her for withdrawing money from my accounts her her own use?

Scenario 2

Right before I die... Is it legal for my wife, as the full POA of all my brokerage and bank accounts, liquidate all my investments and transfer all the assets to her account to the probate fees can be saved (I know there's a deemed sale of assets when I make gifts)? Also, in this case, she doesn't need to deal with the legal procedures and wait for the cumbersome procedures.

Do I need to have a witness around my death bed to confirm I indeed make that choice to gift my wife (also my POA) all of my assets?

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 14 May 2017 20:37

At the risk of being blunt, your line of thought is contradictory. Either you trust your wife explicitly or you don't. It sounds to me that you do not.

First of all, having a Will is pretty important to avoid court interventions upon death. Processes vary by province (family/estate law varies some by province). Get a freaking Will so that what you want will happen upon your death. Pretty simple having a wife and no children. What happens if you are both killed in an accident? Where do you and your wife want your assets to go upon death?

What is the issue with JTWROS on some. or all, of your accounts? JTWROS does matter some with second marriages, relationships late in life due to assets accumulated pre-relationship, particularly with children from prior relationships involved. Neither I nor my current SO have JTWROS accounts because we met AFTER retirement and both have adult children to think of. So no JTWROS accounts and each of us has a Will making some provision for each other, but mostly directed to our own offspring.

If you trust your wife explicitly, you probably need an Enduring POA that allows her (and you in reciprocal arrangement) to act on your behalf at any time with your financial and property affairs. Technically, she can do anything with your assets that you can with an Enduring POA, but no financial institution I know would permit her to transfer all your assets to her personal accounts if she was POA on your accounts. She can pay any bills from your bank accounts that she wants, including her credit car and phone bills, but AFAIK she cannot send money to her bank and brokerage accounts.

She does have legal responsibilities as your Attorney to act on your best interests and transferring all your assets to her account is obviously not in your best interest. She could not do as you suggest... move everything to her accounts to avoid probate. That is what JTWROS accounts are for. Forget about having a witness at your death bed to confirm your consent in allowing transfer. It won't happen for a number of reasons.

You could also have a POA specific to her taking over your financial affairs when you become unable to do so yourself, i.e. mental incapacity, but it is my understanding she would have to go to court to have you declared incompetent. Obviously doctors would have to be involved for a court to agree on mental incapacity. This would be an extra step that I am not sure many people wish upon their Attorney but IANAL so don't know.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 14 May 2017 22:16

AltaRed wrote:
14 May 2017 20:37
At the risk of being blunt, your line of thought is contradictory. Either you trust your wife explicitly or you don't. It sounds to me that you do not.

First of all, having a Will is pretty important to avoid court interventions upon death. Processes vary by province (family/estate law varies some by province). Get a freaking Will so that what you want will happen upon your death. Pretty simple having a wife and no children. What happens if you are both killed in an accident? Where do you and your wife want your assets to go upon death?

What is the issue with JTWROS on some. or all, of your accounts? JTWROS does matter some with second marriages, relationships late in life due to assets accumulated pre-relationship, particularly with children from prior relationships involved. Neither I nor my current SO have JTWROS accounts because we met AFTER retirement and both have adult children to think of. So no JTWROS accounts and each of us has a Will making some provision for each other, but mostly directed to our own offspring.

If you trust your wife explicitly, you probably need an Enduring POA that allows her (and you in reciprocal arrangement) to act on your behalf at any time with your financial and property affairs. Technically, she can do anything with your assets that you can with an Enduring POA, but no financial institution I know would permit her to transfer all your assets to her personal accounts if she was POA on your accounts. She can pay any bills from your bank accounts that she wants, including her credit car and phone bills, but AFAIK she cannot send money to her bank and brokerage accounts.

She does have legal responsibilities as your Attorney to act on your best interests and transferring all your assets to her account is obviously not in your best interest. She could not do as you suggest... move everything to her accounts to avoid probate. That is what JTWROS accounts are for. Forget about having a witness at your death bed to confirm your consent in allowing transfer. It won't happen for a number of reasons.

You could also have a POA specific to her taking over your financial affairs when you become unable to do so yourself, i.e. mental incapacity, but it is my understanding she would have to go to court to have you declared incompetent. Obviously doctors would have to be involved for a court to agree on mental incapacity. This would be an extra step that I am not sure many people wish upon their Attorney but IANAL so don't know.
Thank you for your thorough reply.

I even thought of signing a few blank cheques payable to my wife with amounts left blank, so she can take all my assets when I would be in ICU or something. True... I'm only worried about sudden death or sudden events that may paralyze me physically or mentally. Other than that, I know I can gift all of my assets to my wife as long as I can make it to the bank/brokerage.

I don't have a will set up only because I'm fine with the current provincial inheritance law where one's estates go according to the order of spouse, parents, siblings, etc (we have no children).

As to JTWROS, my wife and I both have unstable income, therefore we prefer not to have JTWROS so that we have more room to plan our taxable income each year.

I guess just no one can win CRA. Enduring POA sounds like a good idea for now at least my wife can pay for our bills from my account. What's the POA (ordinary or enduring?) that one can do for free at the bank/brokerages?

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 14 May 2017 23:17

Wing wrote:
14 May 2017 22:16
As to JTWROS, my wife and I both have unstable income, therefore we prefer not to have JTWROS so that we have more room to plan our taxable income each year.
We've discussed this a number of times on other threads. For your accounts have a JTWROS account with your name first (and your SIN on account). For her accounts, have her name first (and her SIN on account). Then for CRA purposes, it is easy.. You declare all income from the JTWROS accounts with your name first, and she does likewise for the accounts with her name first.
I guess just no one can win CRA. Enduring POA sounds like a good idea for now at least my wife can pay for our bills from my account. What's the POA (ordinary or enduring?) that one can do for free at the bank/brokerages?
POAs have essentially nothing to do with CRA and everything to do with family law. A proper POA (Enduring or General) should be done up by a lawyer, which makes it enforceable for all property and the various institutions have to accept a valid POA for the province in which you reside. Financial institution POAs are only valid for the specific accounts at that specific institution. There is a lot more at stake than just financial accounts. There is auto registration and insurance, real estate transactions, etc, etc.

BTW, each of you should have a Health directive in place (called different things in different provinces) so that each of you can make life decisions for the mentally incapacitated, e.e. with respect to care, where you live, when to pull the plug, etc.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 15 May 2017 14:43

AltaRed wrote:
14 May 2017 23:17
Wing wrote:
14 May 2017 22:16
As to JTWROS, my wife and I both have unstable income, therefore we prefer not to have JTWROS so that we have more room to plan our taxable income each year.
We've discussed this a number of times on other threads. For your accounts have a JTWROS account with your name first (and your SIN on account). For her accounts, have her name first (and her SIN on account). Then for CRA purposes, it is easy.. You declare all income from the JTWROS accounts with your name first, and she does likewise for the accounts with her name first.
I guess just no one can win CRA. Enduring POA sounds like a good idea for now at least my wife can pay for our bills from my account. What's the POA (ordinary or enduring?) that one can do for free at the bank/brokerages?
POAs have essentially nothing to do with CRA and everything to do with family law. A proper POA (Enduring or General) should be done up by a lawyer, which makes it enforceable for all property and the various institutions have to accept a valid POA for the province in which you reside. Financial institution POAs are only valid for the specific accounts at that specific institution. There is a lot more at stake than just financial accounts. There is auto registration and insurance, real estate transactions, etc, etc.

BTW, each of you should have a Health directive in place (called different things in different provinces) so that each of you can make life decisions for the mentally incapacitated, e.e. with respect to care, where you live, when to pull the plug, etc.
It's the first time I mentioned JTWROS on this site so maybe you were discussing this with someone else previously. I'll dig further, I don't know income doesn't need to be split under JTWROS accounts.

Thank you for suggesting the Health Directive.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 15 May 2017 15:04

Wing wrote:
15 May 2017 14:43
It's the first time I mentioned JTWROS on this site so maybe you were discussing this with someone else previously. I'll dig further, I don't know income doesn't need to be split under JTWROS accounts.
What I meant was there are several threads on this subject matter on this site if you use the search engine on 'estates' or 'Wills', etc. That is the purpose of the search engine. There are a number of threads on Wills, Powers of Attorney, Health Directives, etc.

JTWROS is just a type of "joint" account. That has little to do with taxation. CRA still requires you to proportion income earned based on individual capital contributions to the account. If you contribute 100% of the capital to the account, you have to declare 100% of the income earned. Same thing if you contribute 29.237% of the capital to the account, you have to declare 29.237% of the income earned. The challenge is keeping the paper trail for CRA audit.

The benefit of having two JTWROS accounts is the ease in keeping the paper trail straight if one is 100% spouse contributionsand the other is 100% your contributions. I did it this way for decades with my spouse.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by OhGreatGuru » 15 May 2017 22:02

Make a flipping' will already! See this web site for lots of reasons not to die intestate. http://jonathanflawn.com/pdf/Dying%20Wi ... 20Will.pdf

Your bereaved spouse will not thank you for leaving her holding the bag, but with no will authorizing her to settle the estate. She will not thank you for delaying settlement of your estate by a year or more. She is also much more at risk of getting interference from other family members if you do not make your wishes known.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 15 May 2017 23:04

:lol: I've given up trying to convince people to make wills. The resistance to do so escapes me. It's being cheap and thoughtless, even cruel to the survivors.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 16 May 2017 15:24

When you know better, you do better.

I think that's why we have this forum or others alike, for people to learn and make better decisions.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 16 May 2017 15:39

You said above
I don't have a will set up only because I'm fine with the current provincial inheritance law where one's estates go according to the order of spouse, parents, siblings, etc (we have no children).
There can be lots of reasons for family members to contest the will after you are gone (never mind siblings on both sides should you both die together). Do you want a judge to decide based on submissions made to the court?
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by twa2w » 16 May 2017 16:38

Hi Wing
just to be clear on the provincial succession rules. If you and your spouse die together in an accident, the rules will state one of you died first. This varies by province - usually the oldest but not always. If you are the eldest and died first, your wife (assuming no children) would inherit all your money(and since she is also now deceased and if she also has no will, then succession rules apply to her as a widow with no husband), all the money would then go to her successors leaving your family out of it altogether. Is this a scenario you want?
Further, without a will in a normal situation, your surviving spouse will have to spend money to apply to courts to be administrator of your estate in order to arrange transfer of assets. While not overly expensive, it can be time consuming and difficult in a period of grief.(but it will definitely cost more than a will)
You should sit down with your spouse and have a conversation around inheritance, who gets what etc. You should then prepare wills, powers of attorney and Directives for health. Keep in mind wills can be challenged, like any contract, but this is rarer than people think and usually only happens when a person preparing a will does something very unfair such as leaving a child or spouse out of a will. If there were reasons for doing so and these were properly explained then challenges usually fail.

In terms of POA's, lets distinguish between the various types. A normal power of attorney grants someone the ability to act on your behalf while you are alive. It normally comes into power immediately and ceases if you become incapacitated (unable to look after financial affairs). An enduring or continuing POA comes into power immediately and continues or endures through any subsequent incapacity. A springing POA is designed to become effective(spring into power) upon some event happening. This is usually a disability or mental incapacity. Often this is worded such that a doctor and a second medical person must provide a letter confirming incapacity for the POA to come into effect.
There are other types but those are the three most people see.
Now, if you go to your bank and sign their form of POA, it will apply only to the accounts at that bank(and not any subsidiaries like the banks brokerage) and sometimes only to specific accounts and specific actions.(and may or may not be continuing)
If you have brokerage accounts you can assign their power of attorney or a trading authorization. A trading authorization is a limited POA that allows you the ability to trade securities but you cannot withdraw money, change the type of account etc.
If you have a lawyer prepared POA (continuing or springing), you can use this at the bank, brokerage or anywhere really.

Whether your accounts are joint, single, or have POAs has nothing really to do with Rev Canada as noted by other posters.
If you truly want your wife to have everything when you die and you really don't want a will and you trust your spouse then do as Altared suggests.
Make everything joint or have a beneficiary designation on things you cannot make joint such as RSP TFSA.. All bank accounts, real estate, investment accounts etc. Those that are designated as your accounts will have your name first with your SIN and your wife will be a secondary signer. Your spouse will have you added to her accounts with her SIN and name first and you would be a secondary signer. This way tax slips are sent to the proper party but all accounts would have right of survivorship.

A well thought out and prepared will, POA, and Directive simplify things for the heirs and go a long way to speed things up when needed.
There are kits for doing these things and in you and wife's case with very simple estates they may work OK but I recommend going to a lawyer and paying the money to have it done right.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 17 May 2017 11:03

twa2w wrote:
16 May 2017 16:38
Hi Wing
just to be clear on the provincial succession rules. If you and your spouse die together in an accident, the rules will state one of you died first. This varies by province - usually the oldest but not always. If you are the eldest and died first, your wife (assuming no children) would inherit all your money(and since she is also now deceased and if she also has no will, then succession rules apply to her as a widow with no husband), all the money would then go to her successors leaving your family out of it altogether. Is this a scenario you want?
Further, without a will in a normal situation, your surviving spouse will have to spend money to apply to courts to be administrator of your estate in order to arrange transfer of assets. While not overly expensive, it can be time consuming and difficult in a period of grief.(but it will definitely cost more than a will)
You should sit down with your spouse and have a conversation around inheritance, who gets what etc. You should then prepare wills, powers of attorney and Directives for health. Keep in mind wills can be challenged, like any contract, but this is rarer than people think and usually only happens when a person preparing a will does something very unfair such as leaving a child or spouse out of a will. If there were reasons for doing so and these were properly explained then challenges usually fail.

In terms of POA's, lets distinguish between the various types. A normal power of attorney grants someone the ability to act on your behalf while you are alive. It normally comes into power immediately and ceases if you become incapacitated (unable to look after financial affairs). An enduring or continuing POA comes into power immediately and continues or endures through any subsequent incapacity. A springing POA is designed to become effective(spring into power) upon some event happening. This is usually a disability or mental incapacity. Often this is worded such that a doctor and a second medical person must provide a letter confirming incapacity for the POA to come into effect.
There are other types but those are the three most people see.
Now, if you go to your bank and sign their form of POA, it will apply only to the accounts at that bank(and not any subsidiaries like the banks brokerage) and sometimes only to specific accounts and specific actions.(and may or may not be continuing)
If you have brokerage accounts you can assign their power of attorney or a trading authorization. A trading authorization is a limited POA that allows you the ability to trade securities but you cannot withdraw money, change the type of account etc.
If you have a lawyer prepared POA (continuing or springing), you can use this at the bank, brokerage or anywhere really.

Whether your accounts are joint, single, or have POAs has nothing really to do with Rev Canada as noted by other posters.
If you truly want your wife to have everything when you die and you really don't want a will and you trust your spouse then do as Altared suggests.
Make everything joint or have a beneficiary designation on things you cannot make joint such as RSP TFSA.. All bank accounts, real estate, investment accounts etc. Those that are designated as your accounts will have your name first with your SIN and your wife will be a secondary signer. Your spouse will have you added to her accounts with her SIN and name first and you would be a secondary signer. This way tax slips are sent to the proper party but all accounts would have right of survivorship.

A well thought out and prepared will, POA, and Directive simplify things for the heirs and go a long way to speed things up when needed.
There are kits for doing these things and in you and wife's case with very simple estates they may work OK but I recommend going to a lawyer and paying the money to have it done right.
Thank you very much for the thorough reply. Now I have a much clearer picture. Unless my wife and I are willing to have everything joint, otherwise, a will is a must.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 17 May 2017 11:11

AltaRed wrote:
15 May 2017 15:04
Wing wrote:
15 May 2017 14:43
It's the first time I mentioned JTWROS on this site so maybe you were discussing this with someone else previously. I'll dig further, I don't know income doesn't need to be split under JTWROS accounts.
What I meant was there are several threads on this subject matter on this site if you use the search engine on 'estates' or 'Wills', etc. That is the purpose of the search engine. There are a number of threads on Wills, Powers of Attorney, Health Directives, etc.

JTWROS is just a type of "joint" account. That has little to do with taxation. CRA still requires you to proportion income earned based on individual capital contributions to the account. If you contribute 100% of the capital to the account, you have to declare 100% of the income earned. Same thing if you contribute 29.237% of the capital to the account, you have to declare 29.237% of the income earned. The challenge is keeping the paper trail for CRA audit.

The benefit of having two JTWROS accounts is the ease in keeping the paper trail straight if one is 100% spouse contributionsand the other is 100% your contributions. I did it this way for decades with my spouse.
I have read more now that I have a much better understanding. Thank you!

My wife and I have the same bank. They say setting up 2 joint accounts (1 with her name first and the other with my name first) are subject to the manager's approval and we need to provide a "good" reason to do so. I doubt if "ease of keeping paper trails" will get by or better go somewhere else. Did you run into the same problem when you have yours set up?

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Peculiar_Investor » 17 May 2017 11:19

Wing wrote:
17 May 2017 11:03
Unless my wife and I are willing to have everything joint, otherwise, a will is a must.
I think you are missing the point of what everyone has been replying. A will is a must, period.

In Canada, if you die without a Will you are considered to have died "intestate." Simply put, this means that your provincial government decides how your assets will be divided—and not you. There is no reason that I can think of for not having a properly drawn up will.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 17 May 2017 17:04

Peculiar_Investor wrote:
17 May 2017 11:19
Wing wrote:
17 May 2017 11:03
Unless my wife and I are willing to have everything joint, otherwise, a will is a must.
I think you are missing the point of what everyone has been replying. A will is a must, period.

In Canada, if you die without a Will you are considered to have died "intestate." Simply put, this means that your provincial government decides how your assets will be divided—and not you. There is no reason that I can think of for not having a properly drawn up will.
Ok. Got ya!

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 18 May 2017 13:42

I am about to set up a JTWROS bank account with my wife transferring my cash there, me taking the interest income and/or future capital gains so generated 100%. I will operate on this account and make decisions on it 99%, she'll only touch it when the emergency arises.

That's said, if I would be transferring USD into this new joint account from my single owned account, must I recognize any FX capital gains/losses 100%, 50% or 0% at the time of transferral? I'm sure I need to recognize the gains/losses if the joint account is with a child/others, not sure if the spouse has tax deferral option in this case since all future income/gains will be attributed back to me anyway.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 18 May 2017 15:43

Wing wrote:
18 May 2017 13:42
That's said, if I would be transferring USD into this new joint account from my single owned account, must I recognize any FX capital gains/losses 100%, 50% or 0% at the time of transferral? I'm sure I need to recognize the gains/losses if the joint account is with a child/others, not sure if the spouse has tax deferral option in this case since all future income/gains will be attributed back to me anyway.
No. CRA says transfers between 'deposit' accounts does not trigger a cap gains/loss transaction. It has nothing to do with joint accounts. What you transfer is still attributable back to you no matter how many people are owners of the joint account. Your spouse/child, etc. doesn't own anything you transfer. I am not sure if there is a capital transaction upon death when the contents of the account go to all the surviving joint owners. I could argue it both ways.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 18 May 2017 19:44

AltaRed wrote:
18 May 2017 15:43
Wing wrote:
18 May 2017 13:42
That's said, if I would be transferring USD into this new joint account from my single owned account, must I recognize any FX capital gains/losses 100%, 50% or 0% at the time of transferral? I'm sure I need to recognize the gains/losses if the joint account is with a child/others, not sure if the spouse has tax deferral option in this case since all future income/gains will be attributed back to me anyway.
No. CRA says transfers between 'deposit' accounts does not trigger a cap gains/loss transaction. It has nothing to do with joint accounts. What you transfer is still attributable back to you no matter how many people are owners of the joint account. Your spouse/child, etc. doesn't own anything you transfer. I am not sure if there is a capital transaction upon death when the contents of the account go to all the surviving joint owners. I could argue it both ways.
Should I not recognize the gain/loss at the time of transfer, then my intention would be seen as no gifting of beneficial ownership to my spouse. The article below raises the possibility of probate fees still being charged on assets in the JTWROS account.

Page 182, 15(a)
http://www.johnmott.com/files/pdf/chapter_15.pdf

"The CCRA has consistently taken the view that the transfer
of property solely owned by a taxpayer into a true joint
ownership arrangement (one in which beneficial ownership
has changed) would result in a disposition. However, it
would not be a disposition of the “full” account but rather
only the proportionate interest that is being transferred to
the transferee(s). For example, an investor who adds one
person to her account would be said to have disposed of
50 per cent of the account. Similarly, an investor who adds
two children to his account would be considered to have
disposed of 66 2/3 per cent of his account"

...from page 2 of https://www.assante.com/advisors/fmalin ... counts.pdf

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 18 May 2017 20:12

ISTM the key words in that piece is the phrase "transfer of property solely owned by a taxpayer into a true joint ownership arrangement (one in which beneficial ownership has changed)" Who says this account is a 'true joint ownership arrangement" and that "beneficial owership" has changed? In the joint account that you are opening, there is nothing saying (in my opinion) that beneficial ownership of your contributions has to change. You can still be the beneficial owner of 100% of the funds that you contributed to that joint account. It is common practice for taxpayers to keep track of personal contributions to joint accounts for income allocations for taxation purposes.

It says elswehere in CRA guides regarding declaration of cap gains and investment income something to the effect that "attribution of income is proportional to the ownership of assets" to the account. There is no doubt that a typical Joint Account is generally an undivided interest, but there is nothing saying the percentage of owership can't be something other than 50/50.

I suspect an accountant/tax accountant member in this forum will weigh in at some point and perhaps provide more clarity.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by twa2w » 18 May 2017 20:37

Are the USD you are transferring to the new account being converted to Canadian Dollars.
If so you do have a gain or loss on the transaction. This would be no different than selling any secuity and putting cash into your account IMO.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 19 May 2017 13:04

twa2w wrote:
18 May 2017 20:37
Are the USD you are transferring to the new account being converted to Canadian Dollars.
If so you do have a gain or loss on the transaction. This would be no different than selling any secuity and putting cash into your account IMO.
Nope. USD (solely owned saving) to USD (JTWROS saving with my wife), no conversion.

The main purpose of setting up the JTWROS is to have quick access to funds and avoid the probate fees in case I die. Therefore, if not recognizing a deemed disposition of USD means no transfer of beneficial ownership, and can result in failure of probate fees avoidance, then the JTWROS may not be exactly what we want.

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 19 May 2017 14:00

Taxation is different than estate/family law (the former is Federal law, and the latter is Provincial law). Never mix the two. JTWROS means exactly what it says. If one of the joint owners die, the assets then belong to the remaining surviving owners of that account. Those assets transfer outside of probate. Beneficial owership (yours) obviously transfers upon your death to the remaining owners. You should be Googling and learning about Estate/Family law for the province in which you live.

You were just talking about when you move 100% funds of your own to a JTWROS account that has, obviously, other owners as well...and doing this while you are vertical with a heartbeat. Maybe you need to start reviews the appropriate CRA Guides. There is lots involved about ACB (Adjusted Cost Base) of investments and how your Estate (Excecutor/Administrator) can make an election to transfer that ACB (of your investments) to your spouse upon death and avoid cap gain taxes. That only applies to assets transferred to your spouse. Again, there are CRA guides on just about everything.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 19 May 2017 23:12

AltaRed wrote:
19 May 2017 14:00
Taxation is different than estate/family law (the former is Federal law, and the latter is Provincial law). Never mix the two. JTWROS means exactly what it says. If one of the joint owners die, the assets then belong to the remaining surviving owners of that account. Those assets transfer outside of probate. Beneficial owership (yours) obviously transfers upon your death to the remaining owners. You should be Googling and learning about Estate/Family law for the province in which you live.

You were just talking about when you move 100% funds of your own to a JTWROS account that has, obviously, other owners as well...and doing this while you are vertical with a heartbeat. Maybe you need to start reviews the appropriate CRA Guides. There is lots involved about ACB (Adjusted Cost Base) of investments and how your Estate (Excecutor/Administrator) can make an election to transfer that ACB (of your investments) to your spouse upon death and avoid cap gain taxes. That only applies to assets transferred to your spouse. Again, there are CRA guides on just about everything.
My wife and I are with the same bank now, each of us has a set of savings and brokerage account there (cash in savings are offered better interest rates). Checked with the bank, it is fine with setting up two JTWROS savings accounts (one with me as primary holder and the other with my wife as primary holder) for us but their brokerage resists stating one joint brokerage account is okay but not two. In this case, I don't see it's useful to have the second JTWROS bank account setup without a corresponding brokerage account linked to it.

Any idea where the resistance come from with the same brokerage having two joint accounts for a couple?

Also, my solely owned account currently has USD term deposits in it. I plan to have my wife named as enduring POA on that account. With the new JTWROS account (me as primary holder), can my wife be the one transferring my funds to the joint account as the term deposits come mature or must it be me?

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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by AltaRed » 19 May 2017 23:44

Wing wrote:
19 May 2017 23:12
My wife and I are with the same bank now, each of us has a set of savings and brokerage account there (cash in savings are offered better interest rates). Checked with the bank, it is fine with setting up two JTWROS savings accounts (one with me as primary holder and the other with my wife as primary holder) for us but their brokerage resists stating one joint brokerage account is okay but not two. In this case, I don't see it's useful to have the second JTWROS bank account setup without a corresponding brokerage account linked to it.

Any idea where the resistance come from with the same brokerage having two joint accounts for a couple?
I would suggest telling them they need to get their act together as you are doing this for primarily tax purposes (simplicity in tax reporting and filing). I'd tell them I'd go elsewhere if they don't accommodate you. It is perfectly legit to have 2 JTWROS accounts as described. Her SIN is associated with one JTWROS account (hers) and your SIN is associated with your JTWROS account,
Also, my solely owned account currently has USD term deposits in it. I plan to have my wife named as enduring POA on that account. With the new JTWROS account (me as primary holder), can my wife be the one transferring my funds to the joint account as the term deposits come mature or must it be me?
An Enduring POA set up by a lawyer can cover eveything you own, not just that account. I don't even know if a financial insitution has an Enduring POA form (maybe). Your spouse "should" be able to transfer your term deposits to the joint account as they come due.... I say 'should' because the FI may have a 'flag' that would resist your POA moving funds from your account to a joint account in which the POA also has an ownership (might be seen as a fraudulent attempt to gain control over the tunds....but then she already has with a POA so that doesn't make sense). Twa2w might be able to comment further on how a FI might see this, but I'd suggest you ask the financial institution that question directly.
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Re: Estate Planning... POA or must be Will?

Post by Wing » 20 May 2017 12:50

One last thing on JTWROS:

I understand if I'm funding 100% to it, the gains/income attribution is back to me 100%. However, the gains/income generated by the gains/income are not attributed to me and can be taxed under each account holder. In this case, for ease of keeping records, I will have the second generation of gains transfer back to our individual accounts so it won't mess up the original JTWROS %.

Or, if under whatever reason or life circumstances, I later decide to transfer what I've moved to the JTWROS account back to my solely owned account, it will still have no tax consequences or any resistance from the bank. Am I correct?

On setting up a will:

My provincial ID and passport names are not exactly the same (one has my given names inverted) and I have some assets under my ID name and some under my passport name. Can a Will take care of this issue upon my death easily (ie. all assets in different variations of my names can go to my probate with no problem as long as they are listed clearly on my will), when my death certificate will only match one of my names (depending if I die locally or abroad)?

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