Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

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crystals
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Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by crystals »

Mr. and Mrs. Novice lived in BC for a few years after immigrating to Canada. They moved to GTA almost 20 years ago because of jobs. They don’t like the cold winters in Ontario, but are getting used to it. A number of years away from retirement, they are thinking through the pros and cons of the following retirement plans, and would like to get input from you.

Living in a new place may not be a problem. They don’t have extended family anywhere in Canada or US. They lost almost all contact from their earlier BC new immigrant life. Their social life network in GTA is mainly derived from people from work or from parents of kids’ schoolmates; these contacts will reduce/diminish when stop working and when kids are out. It’s too early to tell where their kids will eventually settle down, so being close to kids isn’t a factor.
  • 1. Keep their GTA home as their spring/summer/fall home, buy a condo in Florida for the winter months, and stay there as non-resident.
    • a. They probably won’t be able to afford to stay down there longer, considering the medical/insurance cost.
      b. There will eventually be cold winters that they will be grounded in Canada due to medical reason or unaffordable insurance premium.
      c. Real estate in Florida and other US sun destinations are more affordable now, they are tempted to buy a condo, rent it out until they retire
    2. Keep their GTA home as their only home, rent a place in the sunbelt for 2-3 months each year
    • a. No headache from managing a property in US
      b. No commitment to any particular spot in Florida/Arizona/…; in fact, delay commitment to any retirement lifestyle until future
      c. No tax returns for IRS
      d. A rented apartment will not feel like home, but then again, it’s only for a few months at a time
      e. “Rent is money down the drain”
      f. There will eventually be cold winters that they will be grounded in Canada due to medical reason or unaffordable insurance premium.
    3. Move back to BC and maintain one home there.
    • a. They will have some DB and DC pension from Ontario employers. Is there any pension consequence of moving to another province?
      b. Which province has better at medical care for seniors?
      c. Winters in Greater Vancouver or Vancouver Island are fine. They don’t have to have Florida temperature. They won’t have the fund for an Arizona home, consider a house in BC will cost their GTA house plus a Florida condo.
      d. They think they can figure out which part of BC they might want to move to, and think they can establish a new social network. Is it realistic?
      e. BC gives them fond memory because their life was much better than that in their old country. But after decades in Canada, moving back BC will not provide the magical effect it had when they first immigrated to Canada.
What are/were your considerations when you decide(d) where to apend your retirement life?
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by OhGreatGuru »

If they are a few years from retirement, they are not too old to adapt to change.

I would suggest Option 3. I don't have personal experience, but have several friends who have retired to BC and never regretted it. Don't think of living right in Vancouver, because of ridiculous real estate situation. Investigate suburbs and smaller communities on Vancouver Island, looking into proximity to services and health care. You're still close enough to US to vacation in southern California.

No significant pension consequences in changing provinces. Provincial income tax rates vary, but not all that much. Sales taxes vary significantly, but not between Ontario & BC. Real estate costs & property taxes vary a lot, but you're not exactly in a cheap market in GTA now.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by bones1 »

OhGreatGuru wrote:If they are a few years from retirement, they are not too old to adapt to change.

I would suggest Option 3. I don't have personal experience, but have several friends who have retired to BC and never regretted it.
If you suffer from SAD at all, then don't retire to Vancouver or the BC interior. You'll be slashing your wrists by the end of winter.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by kcowan »

Usually buying a condo is not justified by a three-four month stay. Renting is more cost-effective. There are severe tax implications to being a non-resident owner. And there is hurricane insurance to worry about. Maybe a mobile home would be affordable.

We winter in Mexico and meet snowbirds from everywhere. Many GTA residents move to Collingwood in retirement. BC snowbirds escape the SAD season. Many retirement communities there lack hospital facilities.

We evaluated Florida after retirement in 2002, going there for two seasons. I recommend you try option 2 and rent in Florida, Arizona and Mexico before deciding on anything.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Norbert Schlenker »

Just a few comments on a few points.

1.c. Florida whacks non-residents on property taxes. Insurance is no picnic either.
2.e. "Rent is money down the drain" is a fallacy of the first order.
3.a. No pension consequence from moving to another province.
3.b. Six of one and half a dozen of the other.
3.d. It depends on where you move. Communities with large numbers of newcomers, whether native Canadians or immigrants, are more likely to welcome other newcomers IMHO.
3.e. This attitude sets you up for failure. There is no going back to an earlier rosy life.
What are/were your considerations when you decide(d) where to apend your retirement life?
Decent weather, available medical care, one level house, "interesting" community, affordability. We found all that on Salt Spring in 2000, but the last is no longer true. If we were looking seriously today, I expect our sights would have to be considerably wider. I'm happy we beat the rush of boomers and that did figure into our thinking ten years ago, but I suspect one will have to be considerably more creative these days.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Nemo2 »

Norbert Schlenker wrote:affordability. We found all that on Salt Spring in 2000, but the last is no longer true.
In 1997 we sold our SSI place and pocketed $300K after all fees; I happened to be browsing online yesterday and noticed the house next door, (both properties at the end of (almost) converging dead-end streets), older, and um......'dumpier'......is currently listed for $550K.....so I figure 'ours', if it went on the market' now would likely be asking $700-750K......in 13 years. :shock:
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by blonde »

My spouse and I did a retirement pilot project for 5 years prior to retirement. We chose to continuously improve our retirement lifestyle moving forward. We are two-peas-in-a-pod and our plans are flexible and spontaneous. Now THAT is a darn good thing.

A 'MUST' for us is to maintain a permanent address in AB...everything else becomes a 'WANT'.

We do our share of being around/about...In 2009 we did average staying 9 nites/month in a hotel/resort. er, ah,...SK is not on our map.

We do anything and everything we can when we can coz we can.

as an aside...with Mega-Money, everybody wants to be a Friend.

In retirement...Mega-Money with CASH-FLOW is a 'MUST' too.

Mega-Money = Mega-Happiness.

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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Nowhereman »

We winter in Lakeland, for about $35,000 you get a fully furnished 1,400 sq.ft home in a park, you pay a license of about $70 a year, NO Property Taxes, pay monthly rent of $400, plus utilities.

Six months Health Insurance, for two, about $1,000, Tax deductible.

7% Sales Tax, NO H.S.T, so you save 6% on everything you buy, plus great discounts and special deals for Canadians and Seniors reduce your cost.

Many, many Canadians, lots of Social Activities, most are No Cost, great way to spend winter.

We sold in GTA, when you winter down south, you only need a summer home, so Resort Communities are attracting a lot of Boomers.

Wasaga Beach big retirement destination, one of fastest growing communities in Canada, easily accessible from TO.

I suggest about five years before retirement you start looking, when you find the righht place, it will feel right.

Single story home is a must, stairs and big lots are the enemy, and if moving to a new community, make sure otehrs are also moving there, or else you will always be the new guy in town.

Local Health Care is a must, Hospitals must be accessible.

Personally, from Wasaga to Meaford, the Georgian Triangle , has many plusses.

As you get older, the winters get colder.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by iluvnascar »

We bought a condo in south Florida in the summer of 2001. A terrific place - on a golf course (although we didn't golf); just a few minutes from the Gulf beaches; and dozens of wonderful restaurants within a 15 minute drive (Fort Myers to the North; naples to the South). We wintered in Florida for 6 or 7 winters - about 5 months/year.

But despite all that, we simply got sick of being in Florida every year; we didn't like the drive down and the drive back; and although we had every possible thing we could want in Florida (5 months/year) and Canada (7 months/year)......it got to the point where we felt like permanent travellers without a real home.

So we sold.....and haven't travelled ANYWHERE since (almost three years now).

Florida is a terrific place......and there are lots of terrific places. But the best place of all is HOME!
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by AltaRed »

I agree with Keith's comments that a 3 month stay will not justify ownership from a financial perspective. Five months can tip in in ownership favour. I've looked at the possibilities myself. The only thing ownership gives you in a 3 month stay is a place that contains your 'own' stuff, furnished according to your own taste, rather than the cheap, commercial, low end stuff that rentals have.

Renting allows one to spend winters in different places, to try out different locations, at least until one decides on a 'permanent' winter home. I do not think I could stand going to the same place each winter for years on end.

A lot of it, however, will depend on the social networks one develops with other snowbirds in a particular location. I know people who own places in snowbird resorts who have developed strong social networks over time and have been going back for 10 years or more. The big mistake would be to buy a place in a 'regular neighbourhood' consisting mostly of locals. One will never develop the social networks in such places, will always be an outsider.

I would never consider BC due to its lack of sun in the 5 winter months.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by crystals »

bones1 wrote:If you suffer from SAD at all, then don't retire to Vancouver or the BC interior.
AltaRed wrote:I would never consider BC due to its lack of sun in the 5 winter months.
How does one know if he/she will or will not suffer SAD when he/she is in 60s-80s, if he/she didn't have SAD during 20s or 30s? Is it more of a clinical thing, or psychological thing?
iluvnascar wrote:But the best place of all is HOME
That's what they are searching for, a HOME.
Option 1 allows them to have two places they might possibly call home. But that's expensive.
Option 2 is more economical, but they will be vacationing a few months a year.
Option 3 will be a home in warmer climate, but it's warm without the sun.
Nowhereman wrote:As you get older, the winters get colder.
That's probably true. But "global warming" made 2009-2010 winter quite reasonable in Ontario. :)
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by OhGreatGuru »

bones1 wrote:
OhGreatGuru wrote:If they are a few years from retirement, they are not too old to adapt to change.

I would suggest Option 3. I don't have personal experience, but have several friends who have retired to BC and never regretted it.
If you suffer from SAD at all, then don't retire to Vancouver or the BC interior. You'll be slashing your wrists by the end of winter.
I believe the southeast coast of Vancouver Island and the Gulf islands are quite sunny compared to the west coast and to Vancouver proper.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Pickles »

A key consideration for you should be to focus on building friendships and a network of support in the community you will live in primarily while you are still healthy and active.

It sounds like you haven't done that in Ontario and that you have lost touch with former friends in BC. As you age, you will face some challenges where support and help from other people is a must. Your children are in Ontario, so that's likely your best bet to settle. While you are still working, start to develop social networks through hobbies, clubs, etc. so you can enjoy friends and activities in your home city when you retire. That's where you need them; the friends you meet in Florida or Mexico will be a bonus, but only for a couple of months a year. You'll want more than that.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Nowhereman »

We have made many friends, mainly Canadians but some Americans, our major problem was our Dog, could not rent.

nas has some valid points, we will buya car and leave it there, fly down, just as cheap as driving.

We will sell our Canadian Home, too big for two of us, downsize to a lock and leave.

Dad is 90, Florida is the main reason, still goes down.

West Coast, Mexico, Arizona for mid Canada.

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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by blonde »

As you age, you will face some challenges where support and help from other people is a must.
Study the SYSTEM

Do not be surprised to learn that in this day and age moving forward...nothing is guaranteed, NOTHING. The newbie-boomer-gimmiers are fundamentally changing the definition of 'charity'... nobody is willing to jump and 'Help'...even the Best-Do-Gooders are picky about what they do and to whom. As a retiree, W/O Money U R Toast. OTOH, the retiree with Mega-Money has the means to demand and receive whatever product or service is available. Support and Help is available 24/7 guaranteed, but (always a Yabutt) there is a monetary price to pay for it. The bigger challenge is fighting-off the Milkers and Assholes...with their newer and better mouse-trap.

as an aside...most retirement communities are riddled with Do-Gooders bragging about their kids and grandkids...pictures galore...stories galore. Many are willing to share their spare photos with others too. Why is it that none of these kids or grandkids visit them?

er, ah...a friend has the knowledge and skill to Do-U-in-First.

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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Wallace »

Friends of our recently went on a cruise and they met a couple who were "cruising their life away"

They were permanently on a cruise. They said that it was cheaper than a nursing home, they had a doctor always available, they met lots of nice people, the food was good, and they had a boatful of servants. 8)

I found it hard to believe that it was cheaper than a nursing home. Know anyone who does this?
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by biker »

crystals wrote: .

What are/were your considerations when you decide(d) where to apend your retirement life?
Considerations eh!
-bought a one floor home in the town we have always lived in 10 years before retiring
-Kept our one month holiday timeshare in Andalucia, Spain to see if we wanted to winter there
-Did not commit to any one place for winter. Tried a different place every couple of years (Spain,St.Augustine,Naples,Key West,Panhandle area,St.Petersburg area,Orlando etc.) Plan to continue to do this until we get tired of it and then pick one.
-Definately not consider buying .Already own 3 pieces of real estate and don't need hasstle of another.
Needs change. At one time rented to allow kids/grandkids to join us. They got over spending time with oldies so we don't need to consider that any more.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by kcowan »

crystals wrote:
bones1 wrote:If you suffer from SAD at all, then don't retire to Vancouver or the BC interior.
AltaRed wrote:I would never consider BC due to its lack of sun in the 5 winter months.
How does one know if he/she will or will not suffer SAD when he/she is in 60s-80s, if he/she didn't have SAD during 20s or 30s? Is it more of a clinical thing, or psychological thing?
If you have any symptoms of SAD, they are greatly aggravated when you retire. When working, you may spend the daylight hours in a fluorescent-lighted, sealed office tower. But during retirement, you have all day to spend in your neighborhood.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

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Wallace wrote:I found it hard to believe that it was cheaper than a nursing home. Know anyone who does this?
That must be some nursing home. Condominium cruise ships.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

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biker, one half of you craves the security of the town in which you have lived, the other craves the excitement of exploring new places???
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by BRIAN5000 »

kcowan wrote:
crystals wrote:
bones1 wrote:If you suffer from SAD at all, then don't retire to Vancouver or the BC interior.
AltaRed wrote:I would never consider BC due to its lack of sun in the 5 winter months.
How does one know if he/she will or will not suffer SAD when he/she is in 60s-80s, if he/she didn't have SAD during 20s or 30s? Is it more of a clinical thing, or psychological thing?
If you have any symptoms of SAD, they are greatly aggravated when you retire. When working, you may spend the daylight hours in a fluorescent-lighted, sealed office tower. But during retirement, you have all day to spend in your neighborhood.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

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crystals wrote:Living in a new place may not be a problem. They don’t have extended family anywhere in Canada or US. They lost almost all contact from their earlier BC new immigrant life. Their social life network in GTA is mainly derived from people from work or from parents of kids’ schoolmates; these contacts will reduce/diminish when stop working and when kids are out.
Based on the above, I would totally exclude GTA. Upon retirement, I'd sell my GTA home, and move to a cheaper local such as Belleville, Peterborough, Cobourg, etc. I'm partial to Belleville or Prince Edward County: warm enough (for Ontario), cheap enough, very nice, low crime (don't know about health care).
buy a condo in Florida for the winter months, and stay there as non-resident.
I sense that being years away from retirement, the question really is "should they buy US property now, because asset prices are so low". I think Florida is a huge gamble right now. As Norbert said, a few years of property taxes and insurance, combined with opportunity cost (of the money invested in Florida) will easily eliminate any hope of foreseable capital appreciation over the next 5-6 years (if any takes place). To make matters worst, a lot of condo corporations are near bankrupt, and banks are starting to blacklist many condo development, even established ones. I'm not a gambler, but I would almost prefer trying my luck at a casino rather than investing that kind of money in Florida RE right now. The potential payout is huge, but so is the potential loss. I don't know why a snowbird would not prefer to pay $5,000 - $10,000 in winter rent instead of carrying a $200,000 - $300,000 - $400,000 condo. "Rent is money down the drain" is a myth perpetuated by realtors. There are good reasons to own, and good reasons to rent.
a. They probably won’t be able to afford to stay down there longer, considering the medical/insurance cost.
b. There will eventually be cold winters that they will be grounded in Canada due to medical reason or unaffordable insurance premium.
That's why I'd favor renting in a place like Florida. Rent until the health insurance premiums are unaffordable, or until it becomes too risky to have pre-existing conditions excluded, then "exit the market" at absolutely no cost and no risk.
b. No commitment to any particular spot in Florida/Arizona/…; in fact, delay commitment to any retirement lifestyle until future
I like that. Imagine the freedom to go where you want, take advantage of cheap rent wherever it is year after year, etc.
b. Which province has better at medical care for seniors?
That will change between now and their retirement, and even during their retirement.
consider a house in BC will cost their GTA house plus a Florida condo.
I wouldn't buy in BC either, but I understand how retirees seem to flock there. Your argument is a good reason to move out of the GTA (and not in BC), and in a cheaper 3-season Canadian city, while spending the winter renting in the sunbelt. It's not impossible to sell a $600,000 GTA house, move to a nice quiet location near Belleville for less than 1/2 the price, and use the savings to create enough income for winter rent in the south.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

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marty123 wrote:...I'm partial to Belleville or Prince Edward County: warm enough (for Ontario), cheap enough, very nice, low crime (don't know about health care)...
My son with the three grandchildren moved to Belleville five years ago. They kept their GP in Newmarket until they could be accepted by a local GP. It took a year. YMMV
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Bylo Selhi »

kcowan wrote:They kept their GP in Newmarket until they could be accepted by a local GP. It took a year. YMMV
That's true throughout southern Ontario outside the GTA. (In K-W you're lucky if you can find a GP within in a year without divine intervention.)

OTOH Belleville does have a general hospital, with a much larger, teaching hospital not far away in Kingston.
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Re: Snowbird, stay put, or relocate

Post by Nemo2 »

kcowan wrote:
marty123 wrote:...I'm partial to Belleville or Prince Edward County: warm enough (for Ontario), cheap enough, very nice, low crime (don't know about health care)...
My son with the three grandchildren moved to Belleville five years ago. They kept their GP in Newmarket until they could be accepted by a local GP. It took a year. YMMV
We were luckier.....after only a couple months got a new doctor, (whose wife is from Belleville, so with luck he'll hang around), young guy, who's turning out to be the best doctor either of us have ever had. :thumbsup:
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