Planning for Retirement

Preparing for life after work. RRSPs, RRIFs, TFSAs, annuities and meeting future financial and psychological needs.
investnoob
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Planning for Retirement

Post by investnoob »

Hello all. I'm new to investing. Really, I'm actually new to "personal finance."

I've finally taken an interest in saving. Not just for retirement but for
other things as well (i.e., home repairs, vacations, maybe even a car).

I don't really know if anyone is interested in helping me out with some questions that I may have as I get the feeling that I may be taking advantage of everyone's generosity. But here goes...

I'm 31. I'm an employee of the federal government. Male, single.

Gross Income = 71,400. Net Monthly income = 4150

Assets:

- House, about 20K in equity (at purchase price)
- Fed gov pension plan (on track to retire at 55 with 32 yrs service
this would give me a pension income of 64% of pre-retirement income)
My last pension statement indicates that it is currently worth about 60k.
- 3500 in savings.

Liabilities:

- Mortgage. In yr 3 of 5 yr term.
6.5%. Mortgage was for $172000 amortized over 25 yrs
but I've been making bi-monthly payments to pay it off faster
the amortisation schedule has me paying it off in just over
20 yrs.

- (In the last 8 months, I've paid off about 4k in credit card debt,
and 6k that remained on my student loan.)


Financial Goals

Short Term Goal: Over the next 3-4 months, save 4500 more for an emergency fund for a total of 8k.

Long Term Goals: Pre-pay mortgage and Start two pools of savings.

1. Pre-pay mortgage

2. 1 pool for retirement. I would use this to supplement my pension income which, based on my current salary, would be 45400 per year. I'm hoping to be able to have an extra 10-15k a year to travel, give away, or have fun with.

3. Second pool of savings for short term major expenses like home maintenance, vacations, and maybe down the road a car. (Up to now i would usually throw stuff like this on the credit card but I've broken the habit. I mostly paid cash for consumer goods like electronics, furniture and stuff...but vacations and house repairs would usually get financed.)

Now I'm trying to figure out how to get there...

Right now I can put away 800-1k a month.
If I work at being frugal, I can probably put away close to 1200 (1500 if I work hard).

Investment Plan

My original plan to achieve these goals was to do the following:

1. 200 dollars a month on the mortgage (this is equal to the payment on my old student loan that just got paid off, so I won't even miss it). Take my tax refund from RRSP contributions and put that on my mortgage as well.

2. 500 a month to an RRSP with TD e-series mutual funds, for retirement savings/income that I would split into 20% Canadian Bond index; 30% Canadian Index Fund; 30% US Index; 20% International index. The mers range from 0.31 to 0.48

3. 300 a month to a TFSA. But can't figure out what vehicle to put this money into...short term bonds? short term gic's? or money market fund? Could anyone recommend a low fee money market fund?

I have two questions.

1. Does the strategy outlined above seem to be reasonable, efficient, or wise?

a) What type of vehicle would you put the TFSA savings into?

2. One thing I was trying to figure out is if I should really put my savings for retirement into an RRSP. The taxtips calculator (I can't link it here) indicates I would actually end up paying more taxes in retirement if I went the rrsp route, rather than the TFSA route. The tax shelter of an rrsp, in my case, does not get me further ahead.

I'm assuming this is because of my pension income. I would like to withdraw money from my retirement savings at 55 when I begin collecting my pension.

Would I be better off with TFSA? If so, where would my second pool of money go to?

I know this is a lot of info and questions, but I've just started researching this stuff. The first book I've read so far is the boglehead's guide to investing and I'm now trying to put this stuff into practice. Any info or advice you guys could give would be greatly appreciated.

p.s. how do i do line breaks in this bulletin board?

Thanks.
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Post by brucecohen »

Congratulations on having so much to work with at your young age and at having such future-oriented thinking. You'll do very well.

Your RRSP questions may well be moot unless you have unused contribution room from past years. At $71,400, the pension adjustment for your pension plan -- one of the best around -- almost wipes out your ability to make RRSP contributions.
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Post by BRIAN5000 »

Find out how much it would cost to refinance that mortgage at the new rates.
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Post by AltaRed »

I agree with Bruce your RRSP questions may be moot. Your latest NOA from CRA will tell you whether you have RRSP contribution room or not in any given year (because of your PA - Pension Adjustment from your 'good' pension plan).

If it is moot, then the TFSA will be the most advantageous deferred tax vehicle (once you have built your emergency fund) and I would suggest you go for the full $5k per year and maybe use the rest of your money (what is left of your $1k/month) in paying down your mortgage.

What you do with your TFSA will depend on whether you plan on starting a non-registered investment porftolio, or will be deferring it while preferentially paying down your mortgage. Generally speaking, keep your interest bearing investments in the TFSA and your equity investments in your non-registered plan.

There is not much to choose from in interest bearing vehicles at the moment. MMF currently pay poorly due to MERs taking a lump out of the return. You may be better off with GICs (nominal bonds are too expensive to buy at the $5k level). Indeed, I have my TFSA money in a GIC at the current time (my TFSA is with a discount broker).
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Post by investnoob »

BRIAN5000 wrote:Find out how much it would cost to refinance that mortgage at the new rates.
Hi Brian, I've already looked into this. The penalty would kill me. Thanks.
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Post by investnoob »

AltaRed wrote:I agree with Bruce your RRSP questions may be moot. Your latest NOA from CRA will tell you whether you have RRSP contribution room or not in any given year (because of your PA - Pension Adjustment from your 'good' pension plan).

If it is moot, then the TFSA will be the most advantageous deferred tax vehicle (once you have built your emergency fund) and I would suggest you go for the full $5k per year and maybe use the rest of your money (what is left of your $1k/month) in paying down your mortgage.

What you do with your TFSA will depend on whether you plan on starting a non-registered investment porftolio, or will be deferring it while preferentially paying down your mortgage. Generally speaking, keep your interest bearing investments in the TFSA and your equity investments in your non-registered plan.

There is not much to choose from in interest bearing vehicles at the moment. MMF currently pay poorly due to MERs taking a lump out of the return. You may be better off with GICs (nominal bonds are too expensive to buy at the $5k level). Indeed, I have my TFSA money in a GIC at the current time (my TFSA is with a discount broker).
Bruce, and Alta red. Thanks for your input.

As for equity investments in a non-registered plan, would mutual funds such as the td e-series funds be a good idea? If so, why would these go into a non-registered plan, and not a tfsa or rrsp?

Again, thanks for all your help.

p.s., I had a look at my t4 and box 52 Pension adjustment indicates 9700 and change. What exactly does this mean? I'm embarrassed to say that I never gave much thought to this box. I'm guessing, from your answers, that it has an impact on how much can be contributed to an rrsp.

I do believe that I do have some contribution room carried forward. Just not sure how much (as I have never contributed to an rrsp).
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Post by AltaRed »

investnoob wrote:As for equity investments in a non-registered plan, would mutual funds such as the td e-series funds be a good idea? If so, why would these go into a non-registered plan, and not a tfsa or rrsp?
Yes, the TD e-series funds are an excellent choice whether in a TFSA or an RRSP or a non-registered account. The point I was making is interest income is taxable at full marginal rates while dividends are subject to the dividend tax credit and capital gains are taxed at 50% inclusion rate. Thus it is more tax efficient to put interest bearing investments in the TFSA or RRSP. However, ultimately you have to decide on your asset allocation and to not let the 'tax tail wag the dog'. Tax efficiency is just one factor in investment decision making.
I had a look at my t4 and box 52 Pension adjustment indicates 9700 and change. What exactly does this mean? I'm embarrassed to say that I never gave much thought to this box. I'm guessing, from your answers, that it has an impact on how much can be contributed to an rrsp.

I do believe that I do have some contribution room carried forward. Just not sure how much (as I have never contributed to an rrsp).
The PA is the amount your RRSP contribution room is reduced by for the following year. See this CRA Pension Adjustment article. Your latest NOA from the CRA will tell you how much contribution room you have collected over the years and takes the PA into account. Use that as your guide to avoid making overcontributions. Your 2009 NOA (if you have already received it) will tell you what you can contribute in 2009.

Unused RRSP contribution room is carried forward indefinitely I believe. Perhaps when you become a 6 figure paying executive, you can use a lot of this room when you are in the 29% federal tax bracket. Hope that helps.
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Post by investnoob »

AltaRed wrote:Yes, the TD e-series funds are an excellent choice whether in a TFSA or an RRSP or a non-registered account. The point I was making is interest income is taxable at full marginal rates while dividends are subject to the dividend tax credit and capital gains are taxed at 50% inclusion rate. Thus it is more tax efficient to put interest bearing investments in the TFSA or RRSP. However, ultimately you have to decide on your asset allocation and to not let the 'tax tail wag the dog'. Tax efficiency is just one factor in investment decision making.

The PA is the amount your RRSP contribution room is reduced by for the following year. See this CRA Pension Adjustment article. Your latest NOA from the CRA will tell you how much contribution room you have collected over the years and takes the PA into account. Use that as your guide to avoid making overcontributions. Your 2009 NOA (if you have already received it) will tell you what you can contribute in 2009.

Unused RRSP contribution room is carried forward indefinitely I believe. Perhaps when you become a 6 figure paying executive, you can use a lot of this room when you are in the 29% federal tax bracket. Hope that helps.
Ok, great. Thanks for the great input. And thanks for the mini-course on tax efficiency, that helps explain things. Finally, thanks for the CRA article. I'll have to figure how much contribution room i have. But, for now, I'll be looking hard at maxing out my TFSA and paying down the mortgage (after the emergency fund).
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Post by AltaRed »

There are lots of good financial links on the home page of FWF. A good primer is Shake's Primer http://www.shakesprimer.com and the finiki link at the upper left of this page.
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Post by like_to_retire »

I'll have to figure how much contribution room i have
The amount is on your tax assessment letter you receive from CRA after you file your taxes every year. It's called the RRSP Deduction Limit Statement.

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Post by Flights of Fancy »

In your shoes, while you have a mortgage at 6.5%, I'd focus all my energies on paying that down. There's no way you could earn an offsetting interest rate in a TFSA. I'd put all the money you have earmarked for TFSA and emergency funds into your mortgage for the next three years (until your mortgage renews).

The other thing it sounds like you are looking at is developing a personal budget. Do you know how much you want to spend on the things you've been putting on credit cards? Likely the first thing to do is go over your card statements for the past few years and figure out where the money has been going. That will get you started on figuring out how much to set aside in each budget category.
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Post by investnoob »

Flights of Fancy wrote:In your shoes, while you have a mortgage at 6.5%, I'd focus all my energies on paying that down. There's no way you could earn an offsetting interest rate in a TFSA. I'd put all the money you have earmarked for TFSA and emergency funds into your mortgage for the next three years (until your mortgage renews).

The other thing it sounds like you are looking at is developing a personal budget. Do you know how much you want to spend on the things you've been putting on credit cards? Likely the first thing to do is go over your card statements for the past few years and figure out where the money has been going. That will get you started on figuring out how much to set aside in each budget category.
Thanks Flights of Fancy. I'm starting to think that maybe the mortgage might be the way to go. As for budget. I have a ball park figure for what I need to save for all those sorts of expenses.

I did find out how much RRSP room I have for 2009, its about 32K. Which is more than I expected. I'm not sure what my limit is from year to year. I don't have an NOA (I filed pretty late - in may - they owed me 4 bucks or something). So I logged into the quick access account on the CRA website and saw my total room was 32K.

Should I use all the room?

Again, thanks for the help.
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Post by AltaRed »

investnoob wrote:I did find out how much RRSP room I have for 2009, its about 32K. Which is more than I expected. I'm not sure what my limit is from year to year. I don't have an NOA (I filed pretty late - in may - they owed me 4 bucks or something). So I logged into the quick access account on the CRA website and saw my total room was 32K.

Should I use all the room?
The 32k would be accumulated room over the years. Your 2009 NOA, when it arrives, will tell you how much more room you will have going forward.

You can contribute all 32k to the RRSP if you wish, but you do not have to take all of the deduction this year. Indeed, you should be managing the deductions to just keep you out of the higher marginal tax rates. That way, your contribution is earning tax free growth, but you are only using as much deduction this year as you wish.

Or just make a partial contribution and take the same amount in deduction. It is up to you to manage to your best tax deferred advantage. Having said all that, there is little tax advantage in taking deductions at a 22% federal marginal tax rate if you think you will be in the 26% or 29% bracket in a few years.

But I agree with Flights of Fancy. Paying off a 6.5% mortgage may well be the very best (risk free fixed income) investment you will ever make. There has been much discussion of that in various threads in FWF forums. Let the 32k RRSP room continue to accumulate until you can leverage it better in years to come.
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Post by investnoob »

AltaRed wrote:The 32k would be accumulated room over the years. Your 2009 NOA, when it arrives, will tell you how much more room you will have going forward.

You can contribute all 32k to the RRSP if you wish, but you do not have to take all of the deduction this year. Indeed, you should be managing the deductions to just keep you out of the higher marginal tax rates. That way, your contribution is earning tax free growth, but you are only using as much deduction this year as you wish.

Or just make a partial contribution and take the same amount in deduction. It is up to you to manage to your best tax deferred advantage. Having said all that, there is little tax advantage in taking deductions at a 22% federal marginal tax rate if you think you will be in the 26% or 29% bracket in a few years.

But I agree with Flights of Fancy. Paying off a 6.5% mortgage may well be the very best (risk free fixed income) investment you will ever make. There has been much discussion of that in various threads in FWF forums. Let the 32k RRSP room continue to accumulate until you can leverage it better in years to come.
Thanks.

Its hard for me to predict what my marginal tax bracket will be. I could potentially retire in 24 years with 64% of my income. So if I saved up to replace, say, the other 35% I figure I would be in the same bracket. And that bracket's tax rate could have gone up....so a tfsa might be the best option.

But, from reading what you guys have been saying, it looks like I should at least act on what I know now. I still have a way to go for an emergency fund (should be done in 3 months). Also, I have a 6.5% mortgage. So, for now, I'll plan to fund the emergency fund and work on setting aside a pre-payment for the mortgage.

Outside of that, not sure what I'll do. But you can bet I'll be checking in for advice. Thanks guys.
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Post by investnoob »

Update. I finally was able to register with cra's epass services. I've found my deduction limit is 2900 bucks. And its been consistently around 3000 bucks since I started paying into my gov. pension plan in 2001.

And I have built up room of about 32000 (got some room in 98-01 from when I was a student).

So when I am ready to invest, should I max my rrsp contributions and then put the rest into a tfsa? Anyway, I have a while to figure it out.

(and hahahah, I made 5200 bucks in 97! I remember that job, I worked as a time keeper for a ball hockey league. It was a great job. the refs were always the most entertaining people around). I cannot believe all the info you can see on your epass account. I can find out my earned income for every year I filed a return (first year I filed was in 97).
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Re: Planning for Retirement

Post by tidal »

Can someone find the right thread for this please. Thanks:

Canadians need to save between 10 per cent and 21 per cent of their pretax incomes each year – if they save consistently for 35 years – to have comfortable retirement incomes, according to a new report by former Bank of Canada governor David Dodge.
The authors base their savings calculations on what they call “prudent” assumptions, including a nominal rate of return on investments of 5 per cent, an inflation rate of 2 per cent, and a real return on investments of 3 per cent. They assume annual wage growth of 3 per cent.
The future is bright for jellyfish, caulerpa taxifolia, dinoflagellates and prokaryotes... rust never sleeps... the dude abides... the stupid, it burns. (http://bit.ly/LXZsXd)
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Re: Planning for Retirement

Post by BRIAN5000 »

From report above
We solve for:
1. Savings that begin at age 30 and retirement that occurs at age 65 (35 years of saving).
How about solving for savings that begin at 12 and retirement at 55
This information is believed to be from reliable sources but may include rumor and speculation. Accuracy is not guaranteed
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Re: Planning for Retirement

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tidal wrote: [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1504390/]Canadians need to save between 10 per cent and 21 per cent of their pretax incomes each year – if they save consistently for 35 years – to have comfortable retirement incomes, according to a new report by former Bank of Canada governor David Dodge.
[/quote]
While at Finance, Dodge headed the tax policy group that revamped the RRSP/pension system during the 1980s. Based on economic assumptions in the early '80s they concluded that individuals with no pensions had to save in RRSPs 18% of pretax income annually for 35 years to be able to fund retirement income comparable to pensions for federal civil servants. Hence, the RRSP limit was set at 18%. While I haven't read the report, Dodge's paper likely expands the range below that because of updated economic assumptions and an assumption that, to live OK, a retiree doesn't have to match a civil service pension.

FWIW, the 18% RRSP limit is based on the maximum DB pension payout limit of 2% of earnings base per year of service. The early '80s Finance study found that if you averaged savings over 35 years to produce a level annual target, the worker with no pension should save $9/year for every $1 of target retirement income. This is called the Factor of 9. When you multiply the 2% DB limit by the Factor of 9 you get 18% for the RRSP limit.
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Re: Planning for Retirement

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Huh.

I have two issues with the Dodge report:

1. the assumption that a constant 70% replacement rate is appropriate in retirement. The report discusses (very briefly) all the other assumptions the authors used in reaching their conclusions; but the use of 70% (or 60%, they say once) as the "right" or "target" replacement rate is not discussed as a lynchpin assumption.

2. the assumption that retirement income is provided through a SPIA at age 65, and thus Canadians must save "enough" to purchase a SPIA to replace 70% of income at that age. Is this really a strategy that Canadians use? There isn't an argument that this is a "good" strategy or even an appropriate benchmark - just a note that this is the strategy the authors are benchmarking to.

I'm a little mystified. This seems like an intellectual exercise rather than a "reasoned" and "relevant" contribution.
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Re: Planning for Retirement

Post by Shakespeare »

One of the more interesting items in the news article was a 'going forward' return of 5% nominal with 2% inflation, giving only 3% real.
Sic transit gloria mundi. Tuesday is usually worse. - Robert A. Heinlein, Starman Jones
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Re: Planning for Retirement

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Shakespeare wrote:One of the more interesting items in the news article was a 'going forward' return of 5% nominal with 2% inflation, giving only 3% real.
But it basically follows from the landscape. If, in aggregrate, you have, say, a 50%/50% mix...

10yr GoC bonds are ~ 3.60%
XIU dividend yield = ~ 2.4% + inflation 2% + real earnings growth 3% = 7.4%

That would give you 5.5% nominal. Of course, the 3% real earnings growth is an unachievable fantasy, but what the heck, let's use it... and voila! Assume some taxes and management fees... istm he's being kinda generous to come to 5%, bwtfdik.
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Re: Planning for Retirement

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Dodge Report wrote:More specifically, people earning $61,270 a year and retiring at age 65 must save 14 per cent of their annual income consistently from age 30 to have retirement incomes equal to 70 per cent of their preretirement incomes. They must save 11 per cent annually to have a 60-per-cent income replacement rate.
Could someone confirm these rough figures for the above individual ...

Income at retirement age of 65 ... $172,405
Approximate amount saved in 35 years (@ 14% of income saved/year) ... $1,240,000

Doesn't seem like enough to me - 35 years hence - which is probably the point of the report.
Shakespeare wrote:One of the more interesting items in the news article was a 'going forward' return of 5% nominal with 2% inflation, giving only 3% real.
Telling!
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Re: Planning for Retirement

Post by brucecohen »

mudLark wrote:
Dodge Report wrote:More specifically, people earning $61,270 a year and retiring at age 65 must save 14 per cent of their annual income consistently from age 30 to have retirement incomes equal to 70 per cent of their preretirement incomes. They must save 11 per cent annually to have a 60-per-cent income replacement rate.
Could someone confirm these rough figures for the above individual ...

Income at retirement age of 65 ... $172,405
Approximate amount saved in 35 years (@ 14% of income saved/year) ... $1,240,000

Doesn't seem like enough to me - 35 years hence - which is probably the point of the report.
I think they're short, but not by as much as we might expect. I reckon, based on FoF's post, that they assumed 70% income replacement and purchase of a life annuity at 65. I don't have access to life annuity factors but can calculate the PV of an annuity to average life expectancy, which is pretty much what insurers do. If our retiree lives past ALE, her pension will come from annuity pool members who died earlier.

As you note, pre-retirement income works out to $172,405. So the 70% pension is $120,684. Using 5% nominal return and 2% inflation, I calculated the PV of an indexed monthly-pay annuity for 18 years. That's based on my StatCan 2000-2002 detailed life expectancy table which shows avg life expectancy for a 30-year-old woman at 82.85. Note: longevity has increased a bit since then, and the StatCan table covers the whole population but ALE is highly correlated with socio-economic status. The PV I got was $1,679,368. Add a bit for annuity issuer marketing, increased longevity since 2000-02 and the socio-economic correlation.

Remember: those are all future dollars. Discounted back 35 years by 2% inflation, that's $839,730 in today's money.
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Re: Planning for Retirement

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mudLark wrote: Could someone confirm these rough figures
Dodge's number work --- just ---even assuming your pay rate only increases over your life at the rate of inflation. If you assume you go up the ladder as well it doesn't work. Open this spreadsheet that has been referenced before here.

Change the inputs to Dodge's:
2% inflation - both
5% normal portfolio return

Then play with the ending $$$ savings objective until the years to retirement come to 35 years. You will find that only $330,000 will have been saved. And that an annuity (6.3% payout) will give you only 68% (=40/59) of your pre-retirement income
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Re: Planning for Retirement

Post by Flights of Fancy »

Where do you get the 6.3% annuity payout rate?
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