Retirement - is it over-rated?

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Retirement - is it over-rated?

I'm retired. I'm glad. I'll never work again.
98
38%
I'm retired. I'm glad, I'm working to make ends meet.
4
2%
I'm retired. I'm glad. I'm working because I choose to.
30
12%
I'm retired. I'm sorry. I would have kept on working.
5
2%
I'm working. When I retire I'll never work again.
44
17%
I'm working. When I retire I'll need another job
5
2%
I'm working. When I retire I'll do something else.
54
21%
I'm working. I'll never retire.
8
3%
I don't work. I'm a gentleman (lady) of leisure.
8
3%
 
Total votes: 256

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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

Spidey wrote:Any solutions for this or do you just accept taking it easy in retirement?
We have a men's walking group (ROMEOs) who meet M-W-F and gets me out the door at 8:30 am. Then I often do chores before settling down to read or scan the internet.

We always meet other people on our walks. The t-t-s we go out to dinner or entertain. Sunday remains our day of rest.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Pitboard »

Is that PV or Vancouver?
The Malecon is a daily fun walk for me.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

Pitboard wrote:Is that PV or Vancouver?
The Malecon is a daily fun walk for me.
PV. We meet on the middle of the Malecon pedestrian bridge at 9 but have to walk from home. Last year, guys came from Gringo Gulch, Alta Vista, lower Conchas Chinas, and San Salvador. This year we are still ramping up. We peak around 12.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

Spidey wrote:I'm currently working but one thing I found being off over the holidays is how unproductive my day is. Often I would look at the clock and it was 3:00 PM and I hadn't accomplished much of anything. By that time in a typical work day I would have put in a full day work and hopefully made my contribution to society and likely improved some client's lives (at least that's what some of them tell me). I didn't even work out (exercise) as much as I do in a typical week when I'm working.

Any solutions for this or do you just accept taking it easy in retirement?
No solutions.

This is the challenge that I spoke of.

"Productivity" and "accomplishments" are illusory concepts and only have meaning to individuals who associate their identity with work. The indoctrination starts fairly young. My child hasn't made this link yet, but sooner or later, all children will.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Spidey »

Flaccidsteele wrote:
"Productivity" and "accomplishments" are illusory concepts and only have meaning to individuals who associate their identity with work. The indoctrination starts fairly young. My child hasn't made this link yet, but sooner or later, all children will.
I don't know that I agree that productivity and accomplishment only have meaning to individuals who associate their identity with work, unless we define "work" in the broadest sense possible. Admittedly I do feel a sense of productivity and accomplishment through work but also feel it through improvement in every area of my life - physical fitness, French study, Spanish study, investing, spending time with family, etc. Typically when I'm working most of my day is productive - even much my leisure time is often spent doing online language courses or watching a series in French or Spanish. Even when I work out I try to exercise my mind at the same time by watching something stimulating (have a computer/TV setup in the workout room). And when I do take downtime for a short time to do something reasonably mindless, such as watch regular TV or surf the web, I consider that as also useful in it's own way, with the attitude that "putting my mind in neutral" offers a bit of balance and mental rest.

What I found disconcerting about being off is not so much that I'm unproductive at regular work, which is expected but rather the "putting the mind in neutral" starts to invade other productivity such as physical fitness and language study and I sometimes accomplish less of these than while working. In other words my day looses all structure, time appears to accelerate and mild depression can start to take hold. I'm sure there are solutions such as ideas mentioned already but it seems to take more discipline than I would have thought.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

Spidey wrote:I don't know that I agree that productivity and accomplishment only have meaning to individuals who associate their identity with work, unless we define "work" in the broadest sense possible.
This is true. I should qualify that "productivity" and "accomplishment" in general is illusory.

Most of the activities that you describe are fantastic. I just consider those experiences. Whether I consider myself "productive/unproductive" or if I "accomplished" anything while doing those things, is just a made-up term.
Spidey wrote:In other words my day looses all structure, time appears to accelerate and mild depression can start to take hold. I'm sure there are solutions such as ideas mentioned already but it seems to take more discipline than I would have thought.
This is true. And depression is an observed effect of retirement, due to the loss of identity and social (albeit superficial) network.

However, our day never really had structure. Back to when I was a child, I didn't have structure. It was experience. It was play. That's what it has always been. I just became accustomed to a "structure" because of the indoctrination of school and employment. The same can be said with "productivity", "accomplishment" and "achievement". Those things are just societal constructs. I don't care much for those labels now, and likely less so on my death bed.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Spidey »

Flaccidsteele wrote:
However, our day never really had structure. Back to when I was a child, I didn't have structure. It was experience. It was play. That's what it has always been. I just became accustomed to a "structure" because of the indoctrination of school and employment. The same can be said with "productivity", "accomplishment" and "achievement". Those things are just societal constructs. I don't care much for those labels now, and likely less so on my death bed.
Young children do have a unique ability to see the world as magical and live in the moment. This is much more difficult for adults or even older children without structure. It can be accomplished periodically by unique experiences such as travel or exciting activities such as perhaps rock-climbing but it is difficult for many of us to keep this up on a consistent basis. I can, for the most part, live in the moment with structure but I struggle when I've got too much time on my hands. Have you been able to do it?

Regarding the death bed, I don't know that I agree. Currently I do have a rewarding career and I like to believe that I make a difference in people's lives. I also consider accomplishment and achievement to be non-work activity such as time spent with family or personal goals. I don't think I would like to be on my death bed thinking that my existence didn't make much of a difference or that I didn't achieve some of the things I wanted to achieve. But perhaps what you mean is external opinion of one's achievements and I agree that this is not important.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

Spidey wrote:I can, for the most part, live in the moment with structure but I struggle when I've got too much time on my hands. Have you been able to do it?
Work in progress. Practice makes perfect.

Definitely better at it now. From my perspective today, everybody appears to be rushing. Rushing in circles.
Spidey wrote:Regarding the death bed, I don't know that I agree. Currently I do have a rewarding career and I like to believe that I make a difference in people's lives. I also consider accomplishment and achievement to be non-work activity such as time spent with family or personal goals. I don't think I would like to be on my death bed thinking that my existence didn't make much of a difference or that I didn't achieve some of the things I wanted to achieve.
We must agree to disagree.

As far as work is concerned, I'm not attached to anything there. The same for personal goals.

I don't consider spending time with my family as an "accomplishment" or an "achievement", but I'm still attached to my spouse and child; attached to the idea of making a difference to them. I believe this is an illusion, but am still attached to it.
Alan Watts wrote: "The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves."

“Paradoxical as it may seem, the purposeful life has no content, no point. It hurries on and on, and misses everything. Not hurrying, the purposeless life misses nothing, for it is only when there is no goal and no rush that the human senses are fully open to receive the world.”
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

I admire George Hariton and Alta Red for their contributions here. But I think they do it for personal satisfaction and it will not appear on their tombstones! There are many others, too numerous to mention.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

I selected "I'm retired. I'm glad. I'll never work again.", but with a big caveat.

As I've previously posted I worked at Nortel. Since I early retired I guess I cannot consider the following work:
  • running our family's investment portfolio
  • going from being the Haranguer-in-chief here, to the dark side, one of the FWF sysops and part of the management team (thanks AltaRed, Norbert et al. :wink:) Be careful what you propose to the bigwigs :lol:
  • playing 100+ rounds of golf (in Calgary) a year and maintaining a single digit handicap. Try it some time, some might call it work but for golf addicts like me it is anything but work. (Three months of sleeps until our course should open).
  • serving on my golf course's board of directors and various committees
  • contributing to finiki
  • chief dog walker, current puppy loves her 8 km morning walks in -20 C weather. So did our previous dog.
  • contributing to open source software projects
  • running the family IT infrastructure
  • etc.
The hard part about leaving "work" was I missed the people/social interactions in the workplace, although not the endless meetings and other sh*t, think Dilbert. Been there and lived it. On the technical side I'm probably working nearly as hard contributing in a variety of places and causes.

The best part of "retirement" is having the freedom to choose what to do and when to do it and not being measure on it. In many instances "work" is seen as apparent effort and putting in the time, not the actual contribution and output.

Without a doubt I'd do it all over again and I don't regret the decision to early retire. Of course YMMV, as it does for my spouse who probably will never stop working in some manner or other.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by ghariton »

Peculiar_Investor wrote:The hard part about leaving "work" was I missed the people/social interactions in the workplace, although not the endless meetings and other sh*t, think Dilbert. Been there and lived it. On the technical side I'm probably working nearly as hard contributing in a variety of places and causes.

The best part of "retirement" is having the freedom to choose what to do and when to do it and not being measure on it. In many instances "work" is seen as apparent effort and putting in the time, not the actual contribution and output.
That got me to thinking. I find that there is a huge difference being an employee and being self-employed.

When I was an employee, I too hated the endless unproductive meetings, the push to "participate" and be part of the team, the need to conform, the interference of senior management, fighting the half-baked ideas that consultants would sell to top brass, and generally, the feeling that I was being overwhelmed by the unimportant. I couldn't wait to get out (but I did wait for a small package, because I was just stubborn).

I've been self-employed for seventeen years now and really enjoy the freedom. I choose my work, with the caveat that, once I take on a project, I will see it through. Nobody tells me how to do my work. Nobody nitpicks. I don't have to toe the company line. All that matters is that I deliver something of value to the client.

Sounds a bit like your version of retirement!!!

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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

Peculiar_Investor wrote:The hard part about leaving "work" was I missed the people/social interactions in the workplace
This is interesting.

Many retirees mention this, yet very few keep in touch with their former work colleagues.

Question.

If the people/social interactions were valuable during their career, why aren't they valuable enough to maintain after their career?

From my perspective, workplace relationships seem oddly similar to Facebook "friends".
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by scomac »

Flaccidsteele wrote:
Peculiar_Investor wrote:The hard part about leaving "work" was I missed the people/social interactions in the workplace
This is interesting.

Many retirees mention this, yet very few keep in touch with their former work colleagues.

Question.

If the people/social interactions were valuable during their career, why aren't they valuable enough to maintain after their career?

From my perspective, workplace relationships seem oddly similar to Facebook "friends".
Very observant.

I know that I have very little to zero interaction with my former colleagues. I recall that even in the early years conversations did not come naturally and easily because there wasn't the same common ground on which for those discussions to ferment. At this point, I am so far removed from my former industry as to render any sort of technical discussion another dialect of Chinese. The plus side is that I believe I have a much more holistic view of the world and those around me.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

scomac wrote:I know that I have very little to zero interaction with my former colleagues. I recall that even in the early years conversations did not come naturally and easily because there wasn't the same common ground on which for those discussions to ferment. At this point, I am so far removed from my former industry as to render any sort of technical discussion another dialect of Chinese. The plus side is that I believe I have a much more holistic view of the world and those around me.
We have some interactions once a year and they are very satisfying. It is multiple times because there are several groups. But once a year keeps me satisfied. OTOH I am still friends with one of my buddies from 2nd year U. He is here is PV and I picked him up at the airport Tuesday.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Chuck »

I think the term 'social interaction' is key. I do miss chatting with co-workers even though only a very few of them ever became friends.

I don't miss it so much I would go back to work though. I think this 'social interaction' is the same reason people often do charity work and such. As much to hang out with other charity workers as to help the cause.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by BRIAN5000 »

I think this 'social interaction' is the same reason people often do charity work and such. As much to hang out with other charity workers as to help the cause.
Or do many other things that may have a social connection, group sports like Poker, baseball, volleyball hiking clubs etc.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Flaccidsteele wrote:If the people/social interactions were valuable during their career, why aren't they valuable enough to maintain after their career?
I said I missed the people/social interactions of the workplace, not necessarily that they were valuable.
Chuck wrote:I think the term 'social interaction' is key. I do miss chatting with co-workers even though only a very few of them ever became friends.
Good answer. The co-workers that became friends still remain friends.
Flaccidsteele wrote:From my perspective, workplace relationships seem oddly similar to Facebook "friends".
What's this Facebook thing? :lol: Will it ever catch on? :lol: Would it be a good investment? Why?
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

Peculiar_Investor wrote:I said I missed the people/social interactions of the workplace, not necessarily that they were valuable.
Thanks for that perspective. I hadn't considered missing something that I didn't value.

Perhaps if an individual didn't miss the people/social interactions of the workplace AND didn't find the interactions valuable, they will be better at not associating their identity with work. And make the transition towards retirement a bit easier.
Peculiar_Investor wrote:What's this Facebook thing? :lol: Will it ever catch on? :lol: Would it be a good investment? Why?
Haha, I have no idea. All I know is that Facebook is where old people hang out. :lol:
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

The study cited by the article below, corresponds to my belief that when employees say that they "like their work" that it means they "like" 1) the money and 2) the routine. Even the personal interactions aren't valuable:
Peculiar_Investor wrote:I said I missed the people/social interactions of the workplace, not necessarily that they were valuable.
Which again points to "routine".

Personally, this study is "common sense". The obvious clue being that one needs to be "paid" to do it. As I've mentioned before, we "like" to do many things that aren't paid. Indeed, we often have to pay to engage in them (e.g. hobbies, vacation/travel, watching movies, etc.)

The reason employees say that they "like their work" is because "routine" is a confounding variable. A confounding variable is something that isn't accounted for and suggests correlations that don't exist (e.g. "I like work because of the work" vs "I like work because of the routine").

Happiness mapped: why work is the place we feel the worst
Strikingly, our analysis of all these data found that paid work is ranked lower than any of the other 39 activities people engage in, with the exception of being sick in bed. The effect is equivalent to a 7-8% reduction in happiness relative to circumstances in which someone is not working. Time spent in paid work has a similarly bad (in fact, slightly larger) effect on how relaxed people feel.

...

Working continues to be negatively correlated with happiness, even when it is combined with other activities that are pleasurable such as chatting with friends. Plus, even when we account for how relaxed people felt, working continues to be negatively associated with momentary well-being.

Instead, it appears that we would just rather be doing other things than working. This is why economists have long theorised that work is dependent on getting paid to do it
My mistake when analyzing my desire for early retirement is that I only accounted for the variables of "money" and "friendships". I quickly realized that work friendships were superficial and I wouldn't be keeping them (bias-reinforcing examples were talking to retired workers and asking them how many work friends they have post-work and how often they kept in touch).

Even the need to "contribute to society" was debunked in my mind when I talked with people who had 25+ years of tenure. Most, if not all the things that they worked on were obsolete and easily replaceable by someone or something else. Philosophy around meaning of life, etc. also helped me move away from idea of "contribution to society".

Once I decided that "money" was the only reason for working, I decided to accumulate enough to stop working (to me, "working just to work", didn't make much sense). My error was that I didn't account for the confounding variable of "routine". One needs to replace "money" AND "routine" in order to transition more smoothly from employee to retirement.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Flaccidsteele wrote:The study cited by the article below, corresponds to my belief that when employees say that they "like their work" that it means they "like" 1) the money and 2) the routine. Even the personal interactions aren't valuable:
Peculiar_Investor wrote:I said I missed the people/social interactions of the workplace, not necessarily that they were valuable.
Which again points to "routine".
That's your belief, not mine. I'm okay with you believing that and maybe that's how it has played out for you. However I again disagree with your assessment of my quote as it has nothing to do with your belief about valuable or routine. That makes you 0 for 2. Kindly stop putting your words/interpretation in my mouth.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

More interesting reading.

Why more men struggle with aging
Experts agree that for men, leaving work is one of the most difficult parts of aging.

“Work is a very masculine experience,” says Thompson, adding that for many men, feelings of self-worth are strongly associated with a sense of achievement and of being recognized in the workplace. “For older men it was the one masculine space if you needed respect,” he says. “And for everyone, it’s competitive, even if only with yourself.”
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

I know that the women I know who are retired have a stronger affinity to the grandkids than the men. Is that a continuation of their home-maker role?
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by izzy »

I get the impression that women are more open to new pursuits in retirement, most seniors group activities (choirs,dancing ,acting,exercise ,bridge etc) seem to have vastly more female participants than male.We men seem to prefer to continue the habits of our earlier lives thus avoiding new challenges.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by 8Toretirement »

[/quote]

My mistake when analyzing my desire for early retirement is that I only accounted for the variables of "money" and "friendships". I quickly realized that work friendships were superficial and I wouldn't be keeping them (bias-reinforcing examples were talking to retired workers and asking them how many work friends they have post-work and how often they kept in touch).

Even the need to "contribute to society" was debunked in my mind when I talked with people who had 25+ years of tenure. Most, if not all the things that they worked on were obsolete and easily replaceable by someone or something else. Philosophy around meaning of life, etc. also helped me move away from idea of "contribution to society".

Once I decided that "money" was the only reason for working, I decided to accumulate enough to stop working (to me, "working just to work", didn't make much sense). My error was that I didn't account for the confounding variable of "routine". One needs to replace "money" AND "routine" in order to transition more smoothly from employee to retirement.[/quote]

Interesting conversation.
I split my life into two general parts, the first was very exciting as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces (Infantry). I lived for excitement: mountaineering, parachuting, rafting some of the great rivers of the world, taking part in foreign operations in dangerous places. I was battered a bit, worn down somewhat, and quite a few close calls.

I realized that some of my activities were going to get me killed foolishly, you can't beat a mountain or a river, they will still be there long after I pass from this world. The constant drive to beat each conquered goal is a self defeating process as it's a zero sum game, as the odds stack up and we reach the limit of our skills the ultimate end is determined. I realized my real goal was an internal strife to force meaning into this world by absorbing the rush of ever greater challenges and marking another check beside the done it pile.

I gave it all up.

Truth be told, my nerves were frayed by numerous close calls, and I realized I wanted to live more than reach that next high from some sense of accomplishment scraped from the next great adventure.

My current job is boring, nothing will ever compare to what I accomplished (and I say this with some trepidation) when I was young; but it allows my wife and I to travel, more for her than myself. But I enjoy these adventures as we travel on our own (I plan and do the tour guiding for my wife, we move through countries with little effort as a by product of my former life and this gives her a real sense of accomplishment in life as travel was high on her list of retirement goals). The people I used to share adventures when I was active in the military are long gone now, some deceased, as they didn't stop; other moved on. We scattered like dust in the wind.

Life is impermanent, it's the greatest gift we have "this sense that it will all be over far quicker than we want", as it makes each day more precious. My philosophy is to enjoy life any way I can, without affecting others to any major extent.
Retirement for me is freedom to more fully control my remaining days, and I saw it in some comments above, but I get great enjoyment from routines on my days off, interspersed with little adventures, whatever they may be.
5 years to go, but I am not really counting as I would be 5 years older, and we are trying to live some aspects of retirement now as a hedge against the future which is not known.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

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You know it's time to call it quits
WHEN
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