Retirement - is it over-rated?

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Retirement - is it over-rated?

I'm retired. I'm glad. I'll never work again.
98
38%
I'm retired. I'm glad, I'm working to make ends meet.
4
2%
I'm retired. I'm glad. I'm working because I choose to.
30
12%
I'm retired. I'm sorry. I would have kept on working.
5
2%
I'm working. When I retire I'll never work again.
44
17%
I'm working. When I retire I'll need another job
5
2%
I'm working. When I retire I'll do something else.
54
21%
I'm working. I'll never retire.
8
3%
I don't work. I'm a gentleman (lady) of leisure.
8
3%
 
Total votes: 256

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kcowan
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

I believe the only reason for bringing up senior executives responsibilities was that it is important in the context of the evolution. It might seem harder but it is the same process. Even so-called grunts who do as they are told have to make a transition. It might be viewed as positive but it is really just as hard.

In fact, over at early-retirement.org, there is the issue of transition among non-executive ranks. Mostly fear of the unknown. I think that is one thing that executives can handle better. They tend to be fearless at least to the outsider. It is actually a lonely job. In BC, I belonged to TEC, an organization of executives and they had birds-of-a-feather sessions to deal with issues where there was no-one else to talk it out with. I gained much insight into the plight of CEOs during those sessions.

I was the only one of my buddies who meet every year that made it to CEO. They asked how hard it was and I said it was the hardest because all the issues I dealt with could not be handled at the next level. These direct reports were encouraged to work it out themselves. So when they came to me, they were big hairy problems with no obvious solution. So all my dealings were such issues. (The biggest issue at our annual weekend away is who can win at hearts or liar's dice!) :rofl:
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

First, I agree that there is no difference between a highly paid employee and a lower paid employee when it comes to the challenges associated with transitioning into non-paid-work life (I would say "retirement" but that's just a different form of structure).

The only reason individuals mention that they were executives is because of ego. That’s pretty much it. Their identity is (still) attached to their former label. If a person strives for years (decades) to achieve something, it becomes their identity and their ego will be attached to it. Think children, professional designations, wealth, intelligence, politics, etc. As others have pointed out, what a person did for work or how they were identified, is not really relevant to the transition. It’s just a personal announcement to satisfy a psychological need.

Second, when it comes to “kiss ass”, Although generally seen in a negative light, I believe that this skill is important if one expects to maximize compensation while minimizing time spent working. The art and skill of it is not to appear as a kiss ass. That’s where most people drop the ball. Conveying sincerity is key.

As long as a person understands their audience (whether colleague or direct report or whatever) and the basic psychological drivers of their behaviour, it should be easy to learn how to get what you want.

Executive or not, people are simple. The brain makes hundreds of mental short-cuts every second, and there are dozens of repetitive, basic psych 101 books on influence that have been written to exploit these gaps. To get what you want, you need to give the other person what they want, so to speak.

Apologies for going OT.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by AltaRed »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 04 Aug 2017 22:50 The only reason individuals mention that they were executives is because of ego. That’s pretty much it. Their identity is (still) attached to their former label. If a person strives for years (decades) to achieve something, it becomes their identity and their ego will be attached to it. Think children, professional designations, wealth, intelligence, politics, etc. As others have pointed out, what a person did for work or how they were identified, is not really relevant to the transition. It’s just a personal announcement
You've missed the entire point if you think so.You really can only speak for yourself.
Apologies for going OT.
I doubt it very much. :wink:
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Flaccidsteele »

AltaRed wrote: 04 Aug 2017 23:00You've missed the entire point if you think so.
Correction: if an individual's identity becomes very attached to their former label, it may increase the challenge to transition to a non-labelled existence.
AltaRed wrote: 04 Aug 2017 23:00You really can only speak for yourself.
Of course. As do we all.
AltaRed wrote: 04 Aug 2017 23:00
Apologies for going OT.
I doubt it very much. :wink:
Guilty as charged.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by ghariton »

Flaccidsteele wrote: 04 Aug 2017 22:50 First, I agree that there is no difference between a highly paid employee and a lower paid employee when it comes to the challenges associated with transitioning into non-paid-work life (I would say "retirement" but that's just a different form of structure).
ISTM the real difference is between employees and the self-employed.

Anecdotally, the self-employed have much more control over their work and feel it less as a burden. As a result, many continue to work voluntarily into their seventies and eighties, or until their health places limits on them. Often this is part time, tapering off into full retirement over a number of years. This makes adjustment much easier.
Second, when it comes to “kiss ass”, Although generally seen in a negative light, I believe that this skill is important if one expects to maximize compensation while minimizing time spent working. The art and skill of it is not to appear as a kiss ass. That’s where most people drop the ball. Conveying sincerity is key.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by fraser »

I waited patiently for a package. I knew that it would come with two years of the average of my salary and bonuses, DB pension credit, and full benefits. I was ready eighteen months earlier. Even so, my spouse was a little surprised at how pleased I was when I knew a month prior that it was coming. I had a top flight employment lawyer lined up to review and negotiate, plans to downsize and sell our home, etc.

So I was not hesitant as my spouse. She had experienced many years as a work widow and I tended to work longer hours because of time zones and the areas/nature of my career responsibilities. Having me at home was quite a different experience.

We kept our plans very fluid and that was the secret for us. Lots of extended travel and lifestyle changes served to overcome our concerns of early retirement. I tend to be always planning two trips ahead. DW is currently busy furnishing and decorating a new home after four years post retirement rentals. Opening mystery boxes that have been in storage for five years is interesting to say the least. Some still remain unopened.

We have always been moving forward, flexible types. We have taken and embraced the opportunities that have come our way and moved forward with them. We view ER in much the same vein. Truly as an opportunity to make changes and move forward, albeit on a different path. The key at the moment for us is good health. Spouse has had some issues that will keep us home in Sept. and daughter is expecting in early Oct. Naturally DW does not want to go to far. But in Jan we will be at it again. We need to take advantage of our good health and do the things we want to that require good health and desire. We have seem too many friends, relatives either drop dead or experience activity limiting health issues that forced them to stay close to home.

So we think that it comes down to attitude, flexibility, the willingness to accept change and the ability to move forward in a positive way. No use sitting home living in the past and sulking about the whatifs, the if onlys. You just need to get your skates on do it.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by 2 yen »

fraser wrote: 05 Aug 2017 13:53 I waited patiently for a package. I knew that it would come with two years of the average of my salary and bonuses, DB pension credit, and full benefits. I was ready eighteen months earlier. Even so, my spouse was a little surprised at how pleased I was when I knew a month prior that it was coming. I had a top flight employment lawyer lined up to review and negotiate, plans to downsize and sell our home, etc.

So I was not hesitant as my spouse. She had experienced many years as a work widow and I tended to work longer hours because of time zones and the areas/nature of my career responsibilities. Having me at home was quite a different experience.

We kept our plans very fluid and that was the secret for us. Lots of extended travel and lifestyle changes served to overcome our concerns of early retirement. I tend to be always planning two trips ahead. DW is currently busy furnishing and decorating a new home after four years post retirement rentals. Opening mystery boxes that have been in storage for five years is interesting to say the least. Some still remain unopened.

We have always been moving forward, flexible types. We have taken and embraced the opportunities that have come our way and moved forward with them. We view ER in much the same vein. Truly as an opportunity to make changes and move forward, albeit on a different path. The key at the moment for us is good health. Spouse has had some issues that will keep us home in Sept. and daughter is expecting in early Oct. Naturally DW does not want to go to far. But in Jan we will be at it again. We need to take advantage of our good health and do the things we want to that require good health and desire. We have seem too many friends, relatives either drop dead or experience activity limiting health issues that forced them to stay close to home.

So we think that it comes down to attitude, flexibility, the willingness to accept change and the ability to move forward in a positive way. No use sitting home living in the past and sulking about the whatifs, the if onlys. You just need to get your skates on do it.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

fraser wrote: 05 Aug 2017 13:53
So we think that it comes down to attitude, flexibility, the willingness to accept change and the ability to move forward in a positive way. No use sitting home living in the past and sulking about the whatifs, the if onlys. You just need to get your skates on do it.
Good advice. Totally agree. Many people will be retired for 20-30 years, way too long to not make the most of it. "Couch potato" may be a good investment strategy but it's a lousy retirement strategy.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by longinvest »

SQRT wrote: 06 Aug 2017 07:55 "Couch potato" may be a good investment strategy but it's a lousy retirement strategy.
For some investors to beat the market average (the index), there must be other investors losing to the market. It just cannot be otherwise, by definition of "average".

So, maybe being average is lousy, but what I'd like to know is: Who do you think are all the unlucky investors losing to the lousy average, making even less than indexers, to allow all the clever investors to beat the average? Couldn't they be investors who thought they were cleverer than indexers?

To tell you the truth, I much prefer to be among the lousy indexers than among the unlucky losers. :wink:
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

longinvest wrote: 06 Aug 2017 08:11
SQRT wrote: 06 Aug 2017 07:55 "Couch potato" may be a good investment strategy but it's a lousy retirement strategy.
For some investors to beat the market average (the index), there must be other investors losing to the market. It just cannot be otherwise, by definition of "average".

So, maybe being average is lousy, but what I'd like to know is: Who do you think are all the unlucky investors losing to the lousy average, making even less than indexers, to allow all the clever investors to beat the average? Couldn't they be investors who thought they were cleverer than indexers?

To tell you the truth, I much prefer to be among the lousy indexers than among the unlucky losers. :wink:
I think you may have misread my post. Couch potato is a good investment strategy, but once you are retired you really should not be a couch potato, ie get off the couch.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by longinvest »

SQRT wrote: 06 Aug 2017 08:48
longinvest wrote: 06 Aug 2017 08:11
SQRT wrote: 06 Aug 2017 07:55 "Couch potato" may be a good investment strategy but it's a lousy retirement strategy.
For some investors to beat the market average (the index), there must be other investors losing to the market. It just cannot be otherwise, by definition of "average".

So, maybe being average is lousy, but what I'd like to know is: Who do you think are all the unlucky investors losing to the lousy average, making even less than indexers, to allow all the clever investors to beat the average? Couldn't they be investors who thought they were cleverer than indexers?

To tell you the truth, I much prefer to be among the lousy indexers than among the unlucky losers. :wink:
I think you may have misread my post. Couch potato is a good investment strategy, but once you are retired you really should not be a couch potato, ie get off the couch.
Index portfolio + VPW + delayed QPP & OAS + bridging non-rolling GIC ladder seems like a fine plan to me.

Some lucky retirees have a pension, which would be in addition to the above.

At age 80, it could be wise to buy an inflation-indexed (2%) life annuity (SPIA)* with part of the remaining portfolio, if necessary.

* Single-premium immediate annuity.

That's my plan.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

longinvest wrote: 06 Aug 2017 10:00
SQRT wrote: 06 Aug 2017 08:48
longinvest wrote: 06 Aug 2017 08:11

For some investors to beat the market average (the index), there must be other investors losing to the market. It just cannot be otherwise, by definition of "average".

So, maybe being average is lousy, but what I'd like to know is: Who do you think are all the unlucky investors losing to the lousy average, making even less than indexers, to allow all the clever investors to beat the average? Couldn't they be investors who thought they were cleverer than indexers?

To tell you the truth, I much prefer to be among the lousy indexers than among the unlucky losers. :wink:
I think you may have misread my post. Couch potato is a good investment strategy, but once you are retired you really should not be a couch potato, ie get off the couch.
Index portfolio + VPW + delayed QPP & OAS + bridging non-rolling GIC ladder seems like a fine plan to me.

Some lucky retirees have a pension, which would be in addition to the above.

At age 80, it could be wise to buy an inflation-indexed (2%) life annuity (SPIA)* with part of the remaining portfolio, if necessary.

* Single-premium immediate annuity.

That's my plan.
Ok. But my point was more about getting off the couch. Ie be active and make a good retirement for yourself. Weak attempt at a little humour. :?
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by longinvest »

Oops!
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

longinvest wrote: 06 Aug 2017 11:59Oops!
i got the SQRT joke right away but it did get me thinking that, if a person has the aptitude and the interest, then when they have the time, maybe some active investing might be appropriate. I would not recommend whole hog but maybe an expanded "play money" portion. Like other hobby endeavours.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

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Retirement can be bad for your health. We already knew this, but there is new confirmation.

The abstract:
Social Security eligibility begins at age 62, and approximately one third of Americans immediately claim at that age. We examine whether age 62 is associated with a discontinuous change in aggregate mortality, a key measure of population health. Using mortality data that covers the entire U.S. population and includes exact dates of birth and death, we document a robust two percent increase in male mortality immediately after age 62. The change in female mortality is smaller and imprecisely estimated. Additional analysis suggests that the increase in male mortality is connected to retirement from the labor force and associated lifestyle changes.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

Life can broadly be broken into three phases:
Life before work
Working life
Life after work

In my case, the first phase took 25 years (Master degree in process engineering).
Second phase was 35 years.
Third phase is not over yet but currently 15 years.

I think 10 more years will make my life pretty balanced. When contemplating retirement, my plan was 30 years in phase 2 and 35 years in phase 3. Then a late divorce forced an added 5 years to recover, thus creating this balance.

The biggest challenge now is to stay healthy enough to achieve my objective for this phase!
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

ghariton wrote: 21 Dec 2017 14:33 Retirement can be bad for your health. We already knew this, but there is new confirmation.

The abstract:
Social Security eligibility begins at age 62, and approximately one third of Americans immediately claim at that age. We examine whether age 62 is associated with a discontinuous change in aggregate mortality, a key measure of population health. Using mortality data that covers the entire U.S. population and includes exact dates of birth and death, we document a robust two percent increase in male mortality immediately after age 62. The change in female mortality is smaller and imprecisely estimated. Additional analysis suggests that the increase in male mortality is connected to retirement from the labor force and associated lifestyle changes.
George
Another reason to defer CPP till 70 perhaps? :D I don’t understand why more retirees don’t improve their retired lifestyle by getting fit and losing weight? I certainly did. Get off the couch!!
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by scomac »

SQRT wrote: 22 Dec 2017 10:07
ghariton wrote: 21 Dec 2017 14:33 Retirement can be bad for your health. We already knew this, but there is new confirmation.

The abstract:
Social Security eligibility begins at age 62, and approximately one third of Americans immediately claim at that age. We examine whether age 62 is associated with a discontinuous change in aggregate mortality, a key measure of population health. Using mortality data that covers the entire U.S. population and includes exact dates of birth and death, we document a robust two percent increase in male mortality immediately after age 62. The change in female mortality is smaller and imprecisely estimated. Additional analysis suggests that the increase in male mortality is connected to retirement from the labor force and associated lifestyle changes.
George
Another reason to defer CPP till 70 perhaps? :D I don’t understand why more retirees don’t improve their retired lifestyle by getting fit and losing weight? I certainly did. Get off the couch!!
I've always been fairly active, but that doesn't guarantee that you will retain your fitness. A back injury that I sustained earlier in the fall that wasn't responding to my usual treatment protocols has led to a big change in my routine.

Firstly I dropped another 10 pounds directly off the middle and reduced my consumption of caffeine and alcohol. Then I began exercising everyday under the direction of a physiotherapist and a chiropractor. I also began walking everyday because I wasn't engaged in my normal activities due to the injury.

I started to feel better quite quickly and what was initially hard to do has become easier with repetition. You just have to have the right mindset and stick to a good plan -- where have we heard that one before? :wink: You will be surprised at how quickly that you notice changes in strength and stamina and how you feel in general. I sleep better with fewer interruptions and I don't recall having any stomach issues since I made the changes.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

scomac wrote: 22 Dec 2017 10:52
SQRT wrote: 22 Dec 2017 10:07
ghariton wrote: 21 Dec 2017 14:33 Retirement can be bad for your health. We already knew this, but there is new confirmation.

The abstract:


George
Another reason to defer CPP till 70 perhaps? :D I don’t understand why more retirees don’t improve their retired lifestyle by getting fit and losing weight? I certainly did. Get off the couch!!
I've always been fairly active, but that doesn't guarantee that you will retain your fitness. A back injury that I sustained earlier in the fall that wasn't responding to my usual treatment protocols has led to a big change in my routine.

Firstly I dropped another 10 pounds directly off the middle and reduced my consumption of caffeine and alcohol. Then I began exercising everyday under the direction of a physiotherapist and a chiropractor. I also began walking everyday because I wasn't engaged in my normal activities due to the injury.

I started to feel better quite quickly and what was initially hard to do has become easier with repetition. You just have to have the right mindset and stick to a good plan -- where have we heard that one before? :wink: You will be surprised at how quickly that you notice changes in strength and stamina and how you feel in general. I sleep better with fewer interruptions and I don't recall having any stomach issues since I made the changes.
Good for you! In many respects getting fit is more important than getting or staying rich :)
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

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Also you had better be fit before unforeseen situations happen. Plantar fasciitis, ruptured achilles tendon, 3 broken metatarsals in left foot, spider bite with cellulitis and phlebitis complications. 3 years of being partially crippled! Thankfully now over as of June.

Wear good shoes and use ladders. Shake out your clothes in the tropics. Get help. Stop being a hero.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by Jo Anne »

<snip>
SQRT wrote:Another reason to defer CPP till 70 perhaps? :D I don’t understand why more retirees don’t improve their retired lifestyle by getting fit and losing weight? I certainly did. Get off the couch!!
:roll: Good for you.

It's not that easy for some people, as Scott has alluded to.

I have lost about 20 pounds since I turned 60, five years ago. It would be really nice to lose another 15, but you get to a point where your body needs far fewer calories to function, and unless I permanently go down to under 2000/day, it ain't gonna happen.

And please don't tell me to "get off the couch." (By the way, a lot of people find that find comments like that rather insulting.) Right now, I'm a part-time fitness instructor at the local gym (2-3 hours/week) and I walk 45 minutes every day that weather permits. So I think I'm doing a pretty good job of "getting fit."

Getting back to deferring CPP...

I took CPP at age 60 because I had cancer at that age. Probably a lot of people take early CPP for similar reasons.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

Jo Anne wrote: 22 Dec 2017 14:14 <snip>
SQRT wrote:Another reason to defer CPP till 70 perhaps? :D I don’t understand why more retirees don’t improve their retired lifestyle by getting fit and losing weight? I certainly did. Get off the couch!!
:roll: Good for you.

It's not that easy for some people, as Scott has alluded to.

I have lost about 20 pounds since I turned 60, five years ago. It would be really nice to lose another 15, but you get to a point where your body needs far fewer calories to function, and unless I permanently go down to under 2000/day, it ain't gonna happen.

And please don't tell me to "get off the couch." (By the way, a lot of people find that find comments like that rather insulting.) Right now, I'm a part-time fitness instructor at the local gym (2-3 hours/week) and I walk 45 minutes every day that weather permits. So I think I'm doing a pretty good job of "getting fit."

Getting back to deferring CPP...

I took CPP at age 60 because I had cancer at that age. Probably a lot of people take early CPP for similar reasons.
Good for you. Glad you beat cancer. The reference to a “couch” was a continuation of a weak joke from several posts back relating to the couch potato investment strategy. Also, the reference to deferring CPP to 70 was another semi humorous comment relating to a previous post that suggested that people who took SS at 62 may suddenly have deteriorating health. None of my posts were directed at you. Sorry if you were offended.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

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kcowan wrote: 22 Dec 2017 14:06 Also you had better be fit before unforeseen situations happen. Plantar fasciitis, ruptured achilles tendon, 3 broken metatarsals in left foot, spider bite with cellulitis and phlebitis complications. 3 years of being partially crippled! Thankfully now over as of June.

Wear good shoes and use ladders. Shake out your clothes in the tropics. Get help. Stop being a hero.
The bodies we are born with and their structural limitations could have been distributed in a lottery. Some people are prone to heart disease, others lung disorders, many develop cancers. True, we can wreck our bodies with drugs, alcohol, tobacco etc but I've seen many people who just seem to get the bad luck of the draw.
So far I've been very lucky with general health, but my skeletal system is falling apart. Like yourself Keith, I was action man in my 30s and 40s, but I developed early spinal stenosis ten years ago that led to a spinal decompression and fusion four years ago. It didn't make a lot of difference, mainly because other joints were deteriorating and I had a L hip replacement 2 months ago. It's hard to keep going and my daily step count is below 3,000, which is pathetic. Nevertheless when every step is an effort it takes a tremendous effort to " get off the couch". I have another hip replacement due in May next year. In the meantime I just do the best I can within my limitations. I, too, have lost weight - about 20 lbs. I look out the window at neighbours walking past the house and know that their health problems are just different - diabetes, heat disease, high blood pressure, cancer. Just because they can walk doesn't mean that they are in a better position than I am.
So the trick is just to do the best you can with what you've got and keep on going.
And I look forward to Florida, where I can step out the back door straight into the pool.
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Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by kcowan »

8 years ago I took great pride in taking zero meds. Then an angina attack caused both my GP and cardiologist to take precautions. Now I take pills as preventive measures for HBP, LDL, and COPD. None are a problem but they are all viewed as preventative. Why not be extra safe? Once in a while I go without for a day or two when we travel to Europe.

I know a guy who is 82 and he looks and acts like someone who is in their late 50s. Good genes indeed! BIL was in great shape mostly due to golfing 3x a week. He would always wear a baseball cap. An undetected melanoma behind his ear metastasized into his brain and he died at 73. Luck of the draw!

I recommend that everyone who is in good shape have an angiogram just in case. Without that, many fit people drop dead of a heart attack. The only reason is because it is not covered by medicare unless you have a condition. It maps any undetected blockages in the heart.
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Joined: 01 Nov 2012 11:33
Location: Ontario/Arizona

Re: Retirement - is it over-rated?

Post by SQRT »

kcowan wrote: 23 Dec 2017 08:11 8 years ago I took great pride in taking zero meds. Then an angina attack caused both my GP and cardiologist to take precautions. Now I take pills as preventive measures for HBP, LDL, and COPD. None are a problem but they are all viewed as preventative. Why not be extra safe? Once in a while I go without for a day or two when we travel to Europe.

I know a guy who is 82 and he looks and acts like someone who is in their late 50s. Good genes indeed! BIL was in great shape mostly due to golfing 3x a week. He would always wear a baseball cap. An undetected melanoma behind his ear metastasized into his brain and he died at 73. Luck of the draw!

I recommend that everyone who is in good shape have an angiogram just in case. Without that, many fit people drop dead of a heart attack. The only reason is because it is not covered by medicare unless you have a condition. It maps any undetected blockages in the heart.
Agree that health is indeed a “lottery”. We do the best with what we have and hope it works out. Having said that though, staying as active and fit as possible is probably the best single thing anyone can do to improve the odds of “good health”. I’m 67 and in excellent health, but what scares me is becoming immobile (like my 92 year old mother). If you can’t walk or get around, life is much less fulfilling in my view. So I do everything I can to prevent this.

I also have spinal stenosis. I’ve kept it at bay for the last 11 years through a daily regimen of core stretches and exercises. So far so good, but at some point I know it will be an issue.

I wish everyone good health in the New Year.
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