DPSP & EPSP Questions

Preparing for life after work. RRSPs, RRIFs, TFSAs, annuities and meeting future financial and psychological needs.
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EmperorCoder
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DPSP & EPSP Questions

Post by EmperorCoder »

My employer will soon offer a company stock purchase plan for its employees.

Here are the main highlights of the plan :

This is a single one-time transaction. The employee can buy up to 20% of his base salary in stocks of the company. The employer offers a discount of 15% off the stock price on the day of the transaction. New shares will be issued according to the demand from employees. According to my worst case estimates the dilution effect will be negligible on the stock given its current capitalization (1 billion$ +). Employees will be able to sell the stocks two weeks later (all at the same time - that's the scary part).

Personally, I am not too enclined in investing in the same company which brings the food on the table, but on the other hand it is hard to say no to a 15% gift. If I were to participate in the plan, it would be to sell the stocks ASAP and put the 15% in my pockets. However the two weeks delay seems small but hell of a lot can happen in the course of two weeks in the stock market. My feelings with the company prospects are good, and although I think the stock *could* theorically drop (like any other stock), combined to the fact that there is also a currency risk (the stock trades in a foreing currency) makes me wonder if it's worth it.

I would like to hear your thoughts/advice on this. Would you do it ? Does the plan look fair or doubtful compared to others ?

Thanks
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by Norbert Schlenker »

EmperorCoder wrote:Personally, I am not too enclined in investing in the same company which brings the food on the table, but on the other hand it is hard to say no to a 15% gift. If I were to participate in the plan, it would be to sell the stocks ASAP and put the 15% in my pockets. However the two weeks delay seems small but hell of a lot can happen in the course of two weeks in the stock market.
15% is pretty tempting. OTOH there are risks, as you have noticed.

Let me ask a question. Are you allowed to trade your employer's shares without permission or restriction? If so, what's stopping you from shorting an appropriate number of shares on the effective date of the stock purchase and closing the short two weeks later by delivering the stock you bought at a 15% discount?
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Post by EmperorCoder »

Yeah, I thought of this. But the stock is not on the shortables list of my broker. Maybe I should look for another broker that offers it. And there would still be the currency risk I would need to edge against...

I'm going to meditate this for sure.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by millergd »

EmperorCoder wrote:The employee can buy up to 20% of his base salary in stocks of the company. The employer offers a discount of 15% off the stock price on the day of the transaction. Employees will be able to sell the stocks two weeks later (all at the same time - that's the scary part).

Personally, I am not too enclined in investing in the same company which brings the food on the table, but on the other hand it is hard to say no to a 15% gift.
Bear in mind the 15% employee discount is a taxable benefit on your T4, so calculate that discount at your marginal income tax rate, not as a capital gain. If you're in the top 46.4% marginal tax bracket in Ontario, that 15% return equates to 8% after tax, assuming a flat stock price.

That's still a pretty good return for the degree of certainty it has. How volatile is your company's stock? Does it pay a dividend that makes it worth holding onto?

~millergd~
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Post by sevimo »

Even if you can't short, or buy put options on your stocks upfront (why?), you'll lose money only if price will drop by more than 15% over 2 weeks. For a 1bln$+ company this is a lot, given no radical internal changes will happen. Plus, your total exposure is 20% of your annual salary max; your expected losses in the really bad scenario are much less. I don't know your financial situation, but risks don't look that great to me. It's not like you're selling your house to risk it all in this operation ;)

Even if all employees are going to sell after 2 weeks, it shouldn't have a significant effect (you said it yourself); and even if things turn bad, you seem to be OK with company's prospects, so you can hold on for a while.

All in all, sounds like a good deal to me, althrough it is probably not as profitable in absolute terms as it sounds - given 100K salary and flat stock price, pre-tax profit is 3000$ (less than 2K$ after-tax).
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by ockham »

EmperorCoder wrote: The employee can buy up to 20% of his base salary in stocks of the company.
Emp
So you can buy less than 20% of base salary, right? Buy up to the per centage that will still let you sleep at night for two weeks.
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Post by martingale »

You're not likely to lose 15% in two weeks. If you do, you certainly weren't lose 100%. As bet's go, this is a pretty good bet.
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Post by AltaRed »

sevimo wrote:..you'll lose money only if price will drop by more than 15% over 2 weeks.
Not quite accurate as millergd pointed out (because of the taxable benefit component of this), but I otherwise agree with your post.

I would also look at it another way. Would you be comfortable buying the stock for a quick flip on the open market if it was suddenly trading at a discount of 15% to its NAV?
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by sevimo »

millergd wrote:Bear in mind the 15% employee discount is a taxable benefit on your T4, so calculate that discount at your marginal income tax rate, not as a capital gain.
Actually, I find this rather strange. How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule? If they deposit shares into your brokerage account at the sale date, then what prevents you from selling immediately? If they hold shares for 2 weeks elsewhere, then I can argue that you don't become an owner (one of the rights of ownership is ability to sell) until after 2 weeks, and so taxable benefit (or detriment ;) ) should be calculated not on 15% discount, but on the discount (or premium) of the original purchase price over fair market price after 2 weeks.

Otherwise, it seems that tax is due on paper gain, and the paper gain of the worst kind - the one you can't even possibly lock in.

Added: Straight from the horse's mouth:
T4130 - Employers' Guide Taxable Benefits wrote: The taxable benefit is the difference between the fair market value of the shares or units when the employees acquire them and the amount paid, or to be paid, for them, including any amount paid for the rights to acquire the shares or units.
...
The shares or trust units are considered to be acquired when legal ownership of the shares has been transferred and the vendor has entitlement to receive payment. In general, this would occur where the shares have been transferred to the employee/broker and paid for.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by milo »

sevimo wrote:
millergd wrote:Bear in mind the 15% employee discount is a taxable benefit on your T4, so calculate that discount at your marginal income tax rate, not as a capital gain.
Actually, I find this rather strange. How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule? If they deposit shares into your brokerage account at the sale date, then what prevents you from selling immediately?
you may find out that when you decide to sell 'immediately', there will be a lag of 1-2 days or maybe more. I have tried this and I could not get a sale in 'real-time'
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by EmperorCoder »

sevimo wrote:How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule? If they deposit shares into your brokerage account at the sale date, then what prevents you from selling immediately?
Actually I don't think it's a sale per se. They will be issuing *new* shares to the employees. There might be a delay between the time they issue the shares and have them transferred to the brokerage accounts of everyone. I don't know the whole process behind this, but I'll make sure to ask questions on this. Thanks for poiting out the T4130, it'll sure be handy.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by uhoh »

sevimo wrote: Actually, I find this rather strange. How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule?
I don't, I used to work for a US company with similar options to this (though for precisely those reasons - people selling, shorting, etc - they soon stopped the practice of giving us shares at a discount). We had to buy through a US brokerage and it was controlled, somehow. I forget the details, but it is possible I think.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by marty123 »

sevimo wrote: Actually, I find this rather strange. How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule?
It's likely not a rule, but rather a limitation of the transfer agent. I had the same thing when my employer allowed ESPS. The transfer agent (Computershare) took about 2 weeks (sometimes more and sometimes less) to receive, register and allow the sale of the shares. If, in addition, you do not have an account already created with the transfer agent, you may face additional delays.

I was able to short the shares, and because I was otherwise invested in my employer (stock options and restricted shares), I would always take the short-term approach of immediately selling. I would short the shares (which cost some admin fees and interest that may amount to a few hundreds of dollars). You'll also have to show collateral (other investments or cash) for something like 30% of the value of the grant because your broker doesn't have access to the granted shares.

Some things to keep in mind:

- The 15% is taxable at your marginal tax rate. It could be as high as 39-48% depending on your salary and province.
- If the stock goes down during these 2-3 weeks, you get a capital loss. If you have no capital gain to offset this loss against, it gets carried forward to future years.
- You may be in a situation where the benefit is eliminated if you are a high-income employee, have no capital gain to offset, and the stock loses 7-8% of its value. It's not impossible for a $1B company
- If many employees take advantage of this deal, plan to dump the shares like you do regardless of price direction, you may very well be in a situation where the price goes down enough to wipe-out your profit.

With my employer, i did witness that dates of typical ESOP and ESPP redemptions are marked with a dip in share price. I short them all the time (when I want to resell immediately) and it pays most of the time.

Someone mentioned a PUT option. It's likely not available if the share is to lightly traded to be shorted, and it would be a very high cost compared to short-selling.

The above is in the perspective of a no-risk exercise. As other said, it's not a bad gamble to take if your company is relatively stable and the amount is limited to what you're willing to risk.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by sevimo »

marty123 wrote:
sevimo wrote: Actually, I find this rather strange. How they're going to enforce the "no-sale-for-2-weeks" rule?
It's likely not a rule, but rather a limitation of the transfer agent. I had the same thing when my employer allowed ESPS. The transfer agent (Computershare) took about 2 weeks (sometimes more and sometimes less) to receive, register and allow the sale of the shares. If, in addition, you do not have an account already created with the transfer agent, you may face additional delays.
marty123 wrote: - The 15% is taxable at your marginal tax rate. It could be as high as 39-48% depending on your salary and province.
I still maintain that your benefit tax should NOT be on 15% discount, but on the discount to the price after 2 weeks. Benefit did NOT happen before then.

See CRA interpretation of disposition of shares (here we have the opposite situation - aquisition, but the reasoning still applies):
IT-133 - Stock Exchange Transactions Date of Disposition of Shares wrote: For the usual transactions on a Stock Exchange there is a disposition and acquisition of shares traded on a Stock Exchange, by the vendor and purchaser, respectively, on the settlement date which is the time designated by the Stock Exchange, usually two or three days subsequent to the trade date, on or before which the vendor is required to deliver the share certificates and the purchaser is required to make payment therefore.

The basis for this determination is that "disposition" is defined generally in the Income Tax Act as "any transaction or event entitling a taxpayer to proceeds of disposition of property" (subparagraph 54(c)(i)) and thus, for purposes of the Act, a disposition does not take place until the vendor is entitled to the proceeds from the disposition, i.e., on the settlement date.

In those cases where arrangements are made between vendor, purchaser and their brokers for a further delay prior to delivery and payment, the disposition and acquisition will be at a date subsequent to "settlement date", namely the date on which delivery and payment are effected.

A broker may actually pay the vendor before settlement date but in that case the broker is in effect merely advancing money to his client to be offset when the broker is paid by the purchaser's broker.
The way I see it (and this does not necessarily represents CRA's point of view ;) ), you're merely lending your money to your company for 2 weeks, after that you'll receive taxable benefit in the form of a discount to aquired shares (loan repaid with a premium).

What I am trying to say, that share price can drop 15% before you start losing money (because you'll be taxed only on the difference after 2 weeks), as opposite to ~8% if benefit tax is assessed on the initial discount.

Another example that I can think of: imagine your company promises you (in writing) an unconditional bonus with flexible amount (say, linked to share value of the company), payable next year. Will you include it as part of income for the current year? You don't even know the amount yet...
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Post by Green »

Are you sure this a single one time only transaction? The Employee Stock purchase plans I’m familiar with allowed employees to buy monthly which has benefits of requiring smaller monthly $ contributions and also offering some averaging to reduce effects of volatility . With monthly purchase plans, employees can sign up to invest as little as $50 or $100/month and enjoy the benefits without taking on as much ‘one time’ risk.

If it is a one time offer and you want to ‘lock in’ as much of the 15% profit right away and can’t short your own stock, consider eliminating market risk or even sector index during the two week holding period by shorting an appropriate ETF.

But I’d be tempted to pass on this offer and provide feedback to your benefits people. The Plan as proposed clearly is not meeting your needs as its having you take on too much risk and does not sound like its meeting the company’s goals if its only attractive to you to sell immediately. Companies generally offer these programs to get employees invested longer term to align the employees thinking with shareholders. Sounds like this plan does the opposite.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by marty123 »

sevimo wrote: I still maintain that your benefit tax should NOT be on 15% discount, but on the discount to the price after 2 weeks. Benefit did NOT happen before then.
My experience is that employer will calculate a benefit of exactly 15%, and put that in box 40 of your T4.
sevimo wrote:
See CRA interpretation of disposition of shares (here we have the opposite situation - aquisition, but the reasoning still applies):
IT-133 - Stock Exchange Transactions Date of Disposition of Shares wrote: For the usual transactions on a Stock Exchange there is a disposition and acquisition of shares traded on a Stock Exchange, by the vendor and purchaser, respectively, on the settlement date which is the time designated by the Stock Exchange, usually two or three days subsequent to the trade date, on or before which the vendor is required to deliver the share certificates and the purchaser is required to make payment therefore.

The basis for this determination is that "disposition" is defined generally in the Income Tax Act as "any transaction or event entitling a taxpayer to proceeds of disposition of property" (subparagraph 54(c)(i)) and thus, for purposes of the Act, a disposition does not take place until the vendor is entitled to the proceeds from the disposition, i.e., on the settlement date.

In those cases where arrangements are made between vendor, purchaser and their brokers for a further delay prior to delivery and payment, the disposition and acquisition will be at a date subsequent to "settlement date", namely the date on which delivery and payment are effected.

A broker may actually pay the vendor before settlement date but in that case the broker is in effect merely advancing money to his client to be offset when the broker is paid by the purchaser's broker.
The way I see it (and this does not necessarily represents CRA's point of view ;) ), you're merely lending your money to your company for 2 weeks, after that you'll receive taxable benefit in the form of a discount to aquired shares (loan repaid with a premium).
I think this describes the settlement date (i.e. when is the transaction deemed to have happened) and is an important specifications for stocks traded at the end of a tax year. I don't see how it deals with adjusting the ACB of a stock based on when you were in a position to sell it. In a traditional stock purchase (forget about ESPP for a minute), you can even sell your newly purchased stock before the settlement date by simply calling your broker and asking them to manually put the trade through.
sevimo wrote:
What I am trying to say, that share price can drop 15% before you start losing money (because you'll be taxed only on the difference after 2 weeks), as opposite to ~8% if benefit tax is assessed on the initial discount.

Another example that I can think of: imagine your company promises you (in writing) an unconditional bonus with flexible amount (say, linked to share value of the company), payable next year. Will you include it as part of income for the current year? You don't even know the amount yet...
The difference is that with the ESPP, the employer has given you the shares and they are legitimally yours. The fact that 3rd party factors prevent you from selling them doesn't mean that the stock has not been granted. In your bonus example, there is no transfer of $$$ or stock that takes place until next year.

The same applies to restricted shares, where the tax code in Canada states that at the moment of the grant, a taxable benefit equals to the value of the shares is realized. The fact that the restriction to sell is lifted 1 or more years later is irrelevant, neither is the fact that the company takes the shares back (leaving you with a capital loss) if you leave employment before the restriction is lifted. The US tax laws are different.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by sevimo »

marty123 wrote:The same applies to restricted shares, where the tax code in Canada states that at the moment of the grant, a taxable benefit equals to the value of the shares is realized. The fact that the restriction to sell is lifted 1 or more years later is irrelevant, neither is the fact that the company takes the shares back (leaving you with a capital loss) if you leave employment before the restriction is lifted. The US tax laws are different.
I seems that you're right. It is indeed looks like a purchase of a restricted share (2 weeks vesting period). I was not aware of rules w.r.t. restricted shares in Canada, and I expressed my opinion (of how I'd argue my position using existing CRA interpretations). It seems that IRS position on this issue is much more reasonable than CRA's. I guess IRS did follow the same logic I did - how is this a benefit if I can't cash it or use it in any way? I think they even offer you an option to elect calculating tax the same way CRA does, if you want to gamble that stock price will increase (you'll pay only cap gains tax instead of income tax).

But, in the case of CRA, I've got yet another proof that resistance is futile - applying logic to taxation just does not work ;)
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by AltaRed »

sevimo wrote:
marty123 wrote:The same applies to restricted shares, where the tax code in Canada states that at the moment of the grant, a taxable benefit equals to the value of the shares is realized. The fact that the restriction to sell is lifted 1 or more years later is irrelevant, neither is the fact that the company takes the shares back (leaving you with a capital loss) if you leave employment before the restriction is lifted. The US tax laws are different.
I seems that you're right. It is indeed looks like a purchase of a restricted share (2 weeks vesting period). I was not aware of rules w.r.t. restricted shares in Canada, and I expressed my opinion (of how I'd argue my position using existing CRA interpretations). It seems that IRS position on this issue is much more reasonable than CRA's. I guess IRS did follow the same logic I did - how is this a benefit if I can't cash it or use it in any way? I think they even offer you an option to elect calculating tax the same way CRA does, if you want to gamble that stock price will increase (you'll pay only cap gains tax instead of income tax).
I agree with marty's assessment. I can confirm IRS does allow an election to calculate tax the same way CRA does. I have done it that way myself with US domiciled restricted shares.
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Re: Employer Stock Purchase Plan : need advice

Post by marty123 »

AltaRed wrote: I agree with marty's assessment. I can confirm IRS does allow an election to calculate tax the same way CRA does. I have done it that way myself with US domiciled restricted shares.
My understanding is that the IRS indeed allows you one of 2 elections:

1. One-time taxation as regular income for the grant, which means that the next tax event is upon selling the shares (which leads to capital gain) - this option is same as the automatic tax treatment by CRA

2. No taxation upon grant, but taxation as income upon lifting of the restriction (which I would argue is a much better option even if one works at a blue chip).

It seems Altared and I are talking about US domiciled companies, but I wonder if the tax treatment of restricted shares is the same for Canadian domiciled companies. It seems like most companies are moving away from options and into restricted share grants, which is a much better way to track compensation, but Canada's tax code is very discriminatory of this compensation method, unfortunately.

For the record, we've moved into tax treatment of restricted shares now, not of the ESPP mentionned by Emperor. I still think that the 2-week waiting period he's talking about has nothing to do with a "restricted share" agreement, and more to do with the employer's expectation that a lead period of time is to be expected between the grant and the time the transfer agent is ready to liquidate the shares.

I also think like Green, that this is the wrong way to implement an ESPP. The better way would be through a payroll deduction system which encourages employees to keep the shares, and aligns their interest with shareholders'.
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Post by EmperorCoder »

I would like to thank everyone who gave me advice on this. I decided to go on with the trade and partially hedge myself using the shorting technique described in some of the posts.

I secured a quick 4k profit on this trade with almost zero risk.

Thanks again !

Emp
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DPSP & EPSP Questions

Post by toddler »

Hi - I have a couple DPSP questions, hopefully someone can provide answers.

My company's RSP/DPSP program is administered by SunLife. I have been told that even after the two year vesting period that my company contributed portion (the DPSP) must remain locked in with SunLife [and the funds offer though our RSP/DPSP agreement]. The funds offered don't meet with my Investment Selection Criteria (Seg. Funds MERs are too high), so I would prefer to transfer the money to a different RRSP account, after all, it is my money at that point. I am able to, for a fee, to transfer my contributed portion.

I would like to know if there are any regulations (or laws/rules/etc.) someone can refer me to that will tell me whether this is required (by law/regulation) or if it just happens to be the way the particular RSP/DPSP was setup with my company?

Does anyone have a RSP/DPSP where the company contributed portions is not locked in after the vesting period?

Thxs...
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Post by Beek »

http://www.mackenziefinancial.com/en/pu ... sp_a.shtml
After your employer's contributions are vested, usually after two years of membership, the contributions are not locked-in. Depending on the plan design, you may be able to withdraw these funds any time after the vesting period subject to federal withholding taxes.
Judging from this, I would guess that it's just a characteristic of your plan... Maybe due to the fact that segregated funds are really insurance products?
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Post by Shakespeare »

Mackenzie wrote:Depending on the plan design, you may be able to withdraw these funds any time after the vesting period subject to federal withholding taxes.
I would think most people would want to transfer to an RRSP or LIRA, not withdraw funds. Don't know if that's possible with a DPSP.
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Post by toddler »

Yes, would want to convert the DPSP $ to cash within the DPSP, then transfer in-kind to another institution that holds my RRSP. Saw similar text to the above at the url below, they also use term "withdraw":

http://www.professionalreferrals.ca/article-1410.html

* Contributions vest in members after two years and are not locked-in. Usually a DPSP member has the right to withdraw vested benefits from the plan at any time. Contributions can be cashed out or used to purchase an annuity.
I would suspect a transfer or cash-out should both qualify as a withdraw, but have not seen any text that specifies this.

If someone out there has done a similar transfer, please let me know, thxs.
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Post by Shakespeare »

A "withdraw" would have tax due.
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