Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

Asset allocation, risk, diversification and rebalancing. Pros/cons of hiring a financial advisor. Seeking advice on your portfolio?
DenisD
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

Post by DenisD »

I would check if she qualifies for any Ontario provincial benefits for seniors based on income.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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How is her health and what % of her investments does she need to draw for living expenses, other than RRIF withdrawal. You mentioned replacing the $3,000 working income, so she would have to have about $75,000 generating 4% to receive the $3k. There are a number of very Conservative and quite safe stocks which pay dividends of 4% or close to it and have a long history of growing the dividend.

For my sister we closed out her GIC's we could, sold all her mutuals and invested in dividend paying stocks. She went from 1.8% to 4.35% and all have raised their dividend since we switched several years ago. I expect even if the market crashes like in 2008\2009 the worst that might happen is the increases may stop or slow. For her we stuck with banks, utility, pipleline and communications stocks.
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AltaRed
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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That is good advice for a 84 yr old? She's already reached her actuarial 'best before' date, and increasingly will have lower odds of surviving every year hereafter.

Added: From the Sun Life calculator a healthy 84 yr old female, never smoked, doesn't drink, normal bp, normal height and weight has a 50% chance of living to 91 and a 25% chance of living to age 95. Add in a few 'downers' and that reduces age.

Added2: It is fun (depends on perspective) to play with that calculator. Spin forward the same woman to age 91 and if she is still in the same health, she has a 50% chance of living to 94. Spin forward to 95...and thereafter, only a 50% chance of living another year.
Last edited by AltaRed on 20 Apr 2017 16:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Koogie
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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AltaRed wrote: 19 Apr 2017 19:25 I would be careful about too much financial engineering. If you (or a POA) takes over this lady's finances, there comes an obligation of being prudent....I'd work out a 15 year plan with what she has in capital and pensions and forget about being cute about GIS. Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.
True.  I feel a "fiduciary" duty to her even if CIBC doesn't seem to.
OnlyMyOpinion wrote: 19 Apr 2017 20:32 Something to be aware of with maturing bank GIC's is that they often automatically roll over into a 1 year GIC (along with the abysmal posted 1 yr rate). Check the nature of renewal with the banks and make sure they have reinvestment directions just ahead of maturity. 
Yes, I was aware of this and can see in her statements that we just missed one that occurred back in Feb.   Wish she had of come to me sooner.
OnlyMyOpinion wrote: 19 Apr 2017 20:32 RRIF's seem to pay out of GIC accounts just fine. As AR also noted, I think they remove the required amount from the underlying principal.
If this is so, the resultant interest payments must decrease ?  That would make the "value at maturity" on the statement somewhat misleading.     Can one direct the bank on which GIC they raid for the RRIF withdrawal, if there is more than one ? ie: cull the one with the weakest interest rate first ?
DenisD wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:50 I would check if she qualifies for any Ontario provincial benefits for seniors based on income.
Already on my checklist ..  :thumbsup:
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 This a real dog's breakfast. Congratulations on trying to improve the situation.
No good deed goes unpunished..  :wink:
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 Your relation is of a generation that believed ardently in GIC's, so I can understand why you are trying to start by simply getting GIC's with better return. But try to educate her on what has happened to GIC's in the past decade - sure they are secure, but the interest rate is the pits. If she will even agree to put them in a long-term bond fund it would be an improvement.
I think that process will belong in Step Two. Build trust first and then make war on the banks second.
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 Here's what I dug up on the mutual funds she owns:
1. CIBC Managed Income Portfolio. CIB830. A Portfolio fund. MER 1.80. Classed as CDN Fixed Income Balanced. Fundlibrary rating C. Asset allocation: nominally cash (mostly Money Market) 5%; FI 70%; equity 20%. Appears to be made up mostly of CIBC funds, with a couple of Renaissance funds. Prospectus is very vague about what “underlying funds” they invest in.
2. Scotia Select Income. BNS338. This is a portfolio fund. MER 1.93. Classed as CDN Fixed Income Balanced. Fundlibrary C. Benchmark Index 75% CDN Bond Index; 15% TSX.; 10% MSCI World Index. Mix of Scotia and Dynamic Funds.
3. Scotia Select Balanced Income. BNS340. MER 1.88 %. FundLibrary B. CDN Fixed Income Balanced. FI 65% CDN Bond Index; 18% TSX; 17% MSCI World Index. Mix of Scotia and Dynamic Funds.
4. Scotia Partners Balanced Income. BNS 346. MER 2.13% Fundlibrary B. CDN Fixed Income Balanced. It is portfolio fund too. Benchmark Index: 65% CDN Bond Index; 17% TSX; 18% MSCI World. It holds a wider range of 3rd-party funds (in addition to Scotia and Dynamic) As usual these give the illusion of greater diversification while actually duplicating much of each other’s holdings. This fund has a very short history - must have been new in 2016.
3 & 4 have essentially the same benchmarks.
All very much the information I uncovered and placed into the tracking spreadsheet I have started for her portfolio. I didn't look at the Fundlibrary ratings however. Are they of specific value or just analogous to analysts ratings ? I also found the CIBC disclosure sparse and suspicious.
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 1. Start by combining the taxable Scotia Select Income and CIBC Managed Income into one account at Scotia. Personally I would suggest rolling both of them into Scotia Select Balanced Income fund.
Exactly the same first reaction I had. The BNS340 has fewer bonds, a higher yield and a lower MER.
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 2. In the one RRIF, roll the Scotia Partners Balanced Income Fund into the Scotia Select Balanced Income Fund. They have the same benchmarks, and the Select fund is better rated, with a lower MER.
Agreed. BNS346 into BNS340.
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 3. See if Scotia will allow you to combine the 2 RRIFs. If one was inherited from a late spouse, it may have a different minimum withdrawal schedule, making it difficult for them to combine. In any case, if you can persuade your relative, convert the GIC's in the RRIF as they mature and put them into either Scotia Select Income or Scotia Select Balanced Income.
Agreed.
OhGreatGuru wrote: 19 Apr 2017 21:11 4. For all the taxable GIC's, try to get them rolled into the taxable mutual fund account noted in (1). If they can't be cashed without penalty, do it as they mature. If that fails, fall back on your original plan of at least searching out better GIC's as they come due. (Perhaps you could stress that GIC's are locked-in, and if she suddenly needs money she can't cash them without penalty. - yes, I know there are cashable GIC's, but they pay miserable interest if you exercise that option.)
I will explore that option but I bet dollars to donuts that these GICs are all locked in. It will likely have to be done as they mature.
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Koogie
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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cannew wrote: 20 Apr 2017 15:33 How is her health and what % of her investments does she need to draw for living expenses, other than RRIF withdrawal. You mentioned replacing the $3,000 working income, so she would have to have about $75,000 generating 4% to receive the $3k. There are a number of very Conservative and quite safe stocks which pay dividends of 4% or close to it and have a long history of growing the dividend.
As far as I know, she is in excellent physical and mental health, other than having Type 2 diabetes. From the way she speaks, it seems she is serious about handling the condition though.

The $3000 replacement income will come from turning off the drips she has and taking the cash savings and getting it into a decent, annual paying GIC.

I don't think at this juncture it is really appropriate to turn her from a staid GIC investor into a dividend investor. In fact, I am not even going to suggest getting out of MF and into ETFs. Peace of mind is worth more than that.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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Koogie wrote: 20 Apr 2017 16:14
cannew wrote: 20 Apr 2017 15:33 How is her health and what % of her investments does she need to draw for living expenses, other than RRIF withdrawal. You mentioned replacing the $3,000 working income, so she would have to have about $75,000 generating 4% to receive the $3k. There are a number of very Conservative and quite safe stocks which pay dividends of 4% or close to it and have a long history of growing the dividend.
I don't think at this juncture it is really appropriate to turn her from a staid GIC investor into a dividend investor. In fact, I am not even going to suggest getting out of MF and into ETFs. Peace of mind is worth more than that.
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If you read cannew's posts, everybody should be like him. :twisted:
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

Post by cannew »

adrian2 wrote: 20 Apr 2017 17:55
Koogie wrote: 20 Apr 2017 16:14
cannew wrote: 20 Apr 2017 15:33 How is her health and what % of her investments does she need to draw for living expenses, other than RRIF withdrawal. You mentioned replacing the $3,000 working income, so she would have to have about $75,000 generating 4% to receive the $3k. There are a number of very Conservative and quite safe stocks which pay dividends of 4% or close to it and have a long history of growing the dividend.
I don't think at this juncture it is really appropriate to turn her from a staid GIC investor into a dividend investor. In fact, I am not even going to suggest getting out of MF and into ETFs. Peace of mind is worth more than that.
To a carpenter, everything looks like a nail.
If you read cannew's posts, everybody should be like him. :twisted:
I don't ask others to do as we did, I express opinions. One does not have to agree or even like them. If one reads my posts I think they are fairly consistent and I don't believe I preach that it's the best or only one available. It's the one that has worked for us and as such I pass along the info. Also we are well into retirement so what we express is not "what might happen", but "what has happened for us".
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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If this is so, the resultant interest payments must decrease ? That would make the "value at maturity" on the statement somewhat misleading. Can one direct the bank on which GIC they raid for the RRIF withdrawal, if there is more than one ? ie: cull the one with the weakest interest rate first ?
Most banks have a standard formulation for RIF withdrawals.( note does not apply to discount brokerage arm).

IIRC most are something like this.
First amount comes from savings portion of RIF if any. Then they will take from GIC'S with the money taken from the lowest rate GIC first. If two GIC'S are the same rate, then the first $ come from the shortest maturity.
Once the gic's are exhausted, they start on mutual funds starting with lowest risk to highest ridk.
Money market, then bond, then balanced, then Cdn equity and so forth.
Note if there are two RIF's the holdings in the individual plans determine the payout for each one.

As noted by a previous poster, some banks used to run separate gic and mutual fund rsps. I don't believe any still do so you should be able to combine all rifs into one for simplicity. Please be aware, if you do this, that the institution who holds the RIF on Jan. 1st is responsible for making the minimum payment for the year. So if you transfer now, they would holdback and pay any remaining minimum payment as a lump sum. This does not apply if she is taking more than the yearly minimum and an amount exceeding the minimum has already been paid.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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If I understand OP's original post, there is about $70k in two mutual funds (dripped) in taxed, unsheltered accounts now. Combine them, and start paying out monthly distributions, and the relative might get used to the idea that she can safely generate income from such funds instead of 1% GICs.
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AltaRed
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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I agree consolidation will make for a more clear picture for her. Whether she wants to go further down the MF route will depend on how 'important' preservation of capital is for her. It'll take a few years for this to all come together.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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twa2w wrote: 20 Apr 2017 19:18 Most banks have a standard formulation for RIF withdrawals.( note does not apply to discount brokerage arm).
IIRC most are something like this.
First amount comes from savings portion of RIF if any. Then they will take from GIC'S with the money taken from the lowest rate GIC first. If two GIC'S are the same rate, then the first $ come from the shortest maturity.
Once the gic's are exhausted, they start on mutual funds starting with lowest risk to highest ridk.
Money market, then bond, then balanced, then Cdn equity and so forth.
Note if there are two RIF's the holdings in the individual plans determine the payout for each one.
As noted by a previous poster, some banks used to run separate gic and mutual fund rsps. I don't believe any still do so you should be able to combine all rifs into one for simplicity. Please be aware, if you do this, that the institution who holds the RIF on Jan. 1st is responsible for making the minimum payment for the year. So if you transfer now, they would holdback and pay any remaining minimum payment as a lump sum. This does not apply if she is taking more than the yearly minimum and an amount exceeding the minimum has already been paid.
So, she has two RRIFs at BNS. GICs in one, MF in the other. Currently she gets individual statements for each RRIF account and they say what the minimum withdrawal is for each RRIF account separately. One supposes they are drawing down the GIC principal to fund the minimum withdrawal in that account and selling units of the MF to fund the withdrawal in the other account.

I should be able to ask BNS to combine the two RRIFs into one. Then based on the hierarchy above, they would take the total minimum withdrawal from the combined account and from the GICs only (until such time as they are used up). That way we could draw down the lower paying GICs first along with the unDripped dividends from the MF. Leaving the MF principal alone to hopefully grow capital gains.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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OhGreatGuru wrote: 20 Apr 2017 20:07 If I understand OP's original post, there is about $70k in two mutual funds (dripped) in taxed, unsheltered accounts now. Combine them, and start paying out monthly distributions, and the relative might get used to the idea that she can safely generate income from such funds instead of 1% GICs.
Correct on all counts and that is the course of action you and I posted about above. However, I have another question about the logistics of it.
BNS340 indicates it only has an annual distribution (the MF we would like to dump are monthly or quarterly payors).

Ideally I would like to have the dividends from all the MF payout monthly to her (to match up with her incoming CPP/OAS/UKpension) which would give her a more comfortable and reliable income stream and perhaps more confidence in the results(as you say).

Do you think that we can pre-program that sort of payout from both the Reg and NonReg MF with the people at BNS ? It would have to be a rough guesstimate based on the MF yield I suppose and divided by 12.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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Koogie wrote: 21 Apr 2017 11:30 Ideally I would like to have the dividends from all the MF payout monthly to her (to match up with her incoming CPP/OAS/UKpension) which would give her a more comfortable and reliable income stream and perhaps more confidence in the results(as you say).

Do you think that we can pre-program that sort of payout from both the Reg and NonReg MF with the people at BNS ? It would have to be a rough guesstimate based on the MF yield I suppose and divided by 12.
I suspect you can set up a monthly or quarterly payout schedule from the RRIF based on the Jan 1 withdrawal number. There would already be the annual MF distributions posted in December preceding so that would form part of the monthly payout, along the annual GIC interest. You will already have a good idea what the income stream will be, and if sufficient instruct them to either sell down the lowest GIC principal (if no penalty) or some MF units.

Obviously at some point, you would have maturing GICs on an annual basis, and it simply means 100% of the principal* should NOT be re-invested. Have to remember that GIC interest will change year to year based on the coupon rates of renewing GICs AND more importantly, MF distributions vary year to year too.

IOW, you cannot fine tune this too much because you don't have control of any of the numbers, i.e. precise annual cash flows anyway in terms of what is received, and also what the annual minimum RRIF withdrawal needs to be (depends on each Jan 1 capital value). Don't overwork it.

*Added: The plan I have when I RRIF in a few years is NOT to renew all the principal of annually renewing GICS/Debentures/Bonds (100% of my RRSP). I will estimate the interest cash flow and keep back more than enough principal from a maturing asset to fund the RRIF withdrawal. In my spouse's case, she has a 50/50 equity/FI RRSP. She will have an esimate of annual cash flow generated from her ETFs, equity/balanced mutual funds, and GICS. She will top up her withdrawal need by a combination of 2 things: 1) cash held back from the principal of a renewing GIC, e.g. renew only $30k of a maturing GIC rather than $35k, and 2) selling mf units. The proportion of which will depend on the equity/FI asset allocation she wants to maintain. Some years it will be more from fixed income if equity has done poorly, other years it will be more equity if equity has done well. It will be an annual judgement call/calculation.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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I think some are exaggerating by suggesting that you can only get a 1% GIC. I don't remember ever getting a rate anywhere as low as 1%. As of today I can obtain a 5 year GIC for the ladder at 1.980%.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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AltaRed wrote: 21 Apr 2017 11:39 IOW, you cannot fine tune this too much because you don't have control of any of the numbers, i.e. precise annual cash flows anyway in terms of what is received, and also what the annual minimum RRIF withdrawal needs to be (depends on each Jan 1 capital value). Don't overwork it. .........
It will be an annual judgement call/calculation.
So far I have learned that RRIFs seem pretty sucky.. lol I can see why a lot of people try and melt down their RRSPs beforehand.
Taggart wrote: 21 Apr 2017 13:52 I think some are exaggerating by suggesting that you can only get a 1% GIC. I don't remember ever getting a rate anywhere as low as 1%. As of today I can obtain a 5 year GIC for the ladder at 1.980%.
True but when you are elderly and trusting of the banks... they definitely put you into shitty GICs. Some of hers aren't even making 1%
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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Koogie wrote: 21 Apr 2017 14:28
Taggart wrote: 21 Apr 2017 13:52 I think some are exaggerating by suggesting that you can only get a 1% GIC. I don't remember ever getting a rate anywhere as low as 1%. As of today I can obtain a 5 year GIC for the ladder at 1.980%.
True but when you are elderly and trusting of the banks... they definitely put you into shitty GICs. Some of hers aren't even making 1%
That's pretty sad. It really is. At least the bank brokerage we're dealing with is good enough to supply the 1 through 5 year rates for GIC's and I just have to make a choice between which issuer to take and then buy it online once a year. Her average GIC rate for the ladder is well over 2% which is at least higher than the yearly inflation rate for this past year. She's been on a minimum monthly withdrawal schedule from the RRIF since this was first started.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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Koogie wrote:So far I have learned that RRIFs seem pretty sucky
:roll:
In 2016 my RRIF/LIF provided nearly 50% (gross) of my retirement income. I draw the minimum each year.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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Koogie wrote: 21 Apr 2017 11:30 ... However, I have another question about the logistics of it.
BNS340 indicates it only has an annual distribution (the MF we would like to dump are monthly or quarterly payors).

Ideally I would like to have the dividends from all the MF payout monthly to her (to match up with her incoming CPP/OAS/UKpension) which would give her a more comfortable and reliable income stream and perhaps more confidence in the results(as you say).

...
I stand corrected, with egg all over my face. All the funds I recommended are described as having the purpose of generating regular income. But then I find most of them only pay distributions annually - I just assumed it was monthly.

The Scotia Selected Income (BNS338) pays distributions for income monthly, and capital gains annually. I believe you can have the distributions paid out rather than re-invested, because the profile says it is specifically for investors wanting monthly income. But their profile also says the income stream is variable - it is not made in equal payments like most "monthly income" funds. Scotia Diversified Monthly Income Fund is Scotia's closest equivalent to RBC or TD Monthly Income. I would assume it pays uniform monthly payments for 11 months. Then in the last month pays either a larger sum if they have had a good year for capital gains; or an equal payment in a bad year, making up the shortage with ROC if necessary. It is not as well rate as the RBC and TD funds, and may have too much equity for your relative's profile. Which leaves you back with the Selected Income portfolio.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

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OhGreatGuru wrote: 21 Apr 2017 18:12 The Scotia Selected Income (BNS338) pays distributions for income monthly, and capital gains annually. I believe you can have the distributions paid out rather than re-invested, because the profile says it is specifically for investors wanting monthly income. But their profile also says the income stream is variable - it is not made in equal payments like most "monthly income" funds. Scotia Diversified Monthly Income Fund is Scotia's closest equivalent to RBC or TD Monthly Income. I would assume it pays uniform monthly payments for 11 months. Then in the last month pays either a larger sum if they have had a good year for capital gains; or an equal payment in a bad year, making up the shortage with ROC if necessary. It is not as well rate as the RBC and TD funds, and may have too much equity for your relative's profile. Which leaves you back with the Selected Income portfolio.
I am going to be charitable and assume that the monthly payout schedule might be why BNS put her into BNS338 in the TFSA and NonReg to begin with. Although, having it dripped mostly negates that intent anyway.

Anyway, I spoke with her last night and she was happy to know that we could replace her small business income by making a few simple initial changes. At 84, I think she deserves to slow down a bit. We are going to make appointments to start the process in May once I am back from a holiday.

I was happy to find out that she also has a chequing account at BNS as well. Another nail in the coffin lid for CIBC.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

Post by gaspr »

Not sure if an 84 year old woman would qualify to purchase a life annuity but it might be an option to consider if she is in good health. Payout rates for an 80 year old female with registered funds(no guarantee period) are between 9 and 10%.
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Re: Seeking input on elderly relatives portfolio

Post by OhGreatGuru »

Actuarially speaking, she is well past what is usually considered the optimal age for buying annuities. (early '70's). She might have done well to buy an RSP-annuity instead of converting her RRSP funds to RRIF, for the security of income. But that ship sailed long ago.
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