High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Asset allocation, risk, diversification and rebalancing. Pros/cons of hiring a financial advisor.

Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby ghariton » 11 Mar 2012 16:32

newguy wrote:What's harder, learn a couch potato portfolio or learn how to find a trustworthy advisor?

My wife wouldn't have any trouble with the second. Is he (or she) courteous? Does he have a nice smile? Do they share an interest in music/gardening/shoes?

George
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby blonde » 11 Mar 2012 16:37

Study the Financial-System and ALL the processes and subprocesses...Formal and Informal.

Do not be surprised to learn that much has changed since the New Global Economy finalized the 'Rules-to-the-Game'...Dawg-eat-Dawg is stronger and meaner than ever before...the aim is to get the most for the least in the shortest cycle time. No stone is left unturned.

as an aside...at the Geritol-Club the Vultures are circling 24/7 continuously...checking and rechecking the day-to-day conditions focusing on the weak and stupid. When the time is rite, 'ems snuggle-up providing the warmest and fuzziest story ever...when the emotion/s is peaking. Thereafter, it is ALL about MONEY...for #1. KCUF da Geritoler. Needless to say, 'ems weak-and-stupid Geritolers are a Gold-Mine for the Vultures...Patience is a Virture, Big-Time.

In this day and age...being in sync with the New Global Economy is paramount. Take a peek at my 5 + 3 GP's to get a heads-up.

Business is BUSINESS.

The warm-and-fuzzy thingies = a MIRAGE...(In SK the MIRAGE appears in stereo).

Everybodys' in Sales.

Don't Trust Anyone.

Buyer BEWARE.

It is ALL about MONEY, Folks!!!
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby kcowan » 12 Mar 2012 09:13

ghariton wrote:Full service brokers have been known to churn their clients' accounts. They have also been known to select investments that were totally inappropriate for the clients. One of the more dangerous investment moves is to give a full service broker discretionary trading powers.

George
They can also sell their own book because it is easier than selecting appropriate stocks. Especially pre-IPO funds-raising issues.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby kcowan » 12 Mar 2012 14:22

ghariton wrote:My wife wouldn't have any trouble with the second. Is he (or she) courteous? Does he have a nice smile? Do they share an interest in music/gardening/shoes?
George
Here is a way to test how good your potential advisor is:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/03/does-your-financial-guru-or-doomster-resemble-a-cult
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby DanH » 12 Mar 2012 15:13

newguy wrote:
DanH wrote:I've heard this so much in the last few years that I wrote a short article for advisors on this very issue.
But what should young DIY'ers do today? You make it sound like the prospective client calls you every few years just to make sure you're still alive. He has to vet the advisors in advance.

What's harder, learn a couch potato portfolio or learn how to find a trustworthy advisor?

newguy


I think both are tough. I think the specific course of action for you and other DIYs depends on your spouse's interests, skills/education and professionals in your network of contacts.

One option is to draft a detailed (but user-friendly) Investment Policy Statement outlining everything - quantification of goals; list of constraints; amount of acceptable risk; liquidity needs; tax issue; legal & other issues - in addition to the specific list of products to be used. But then you have to outline how to execute. So this option involves more than a traditional IPS but really more of a user's how-to guide to your family portfolio. This needs to be written in such a way that your spouse (and/or a close friend/relative) can pick up this document, follow everything and execute as you wish. That's the option to pass along your DIY instructions to keep your family a DIY household.

The other option is simply to start interviewing advisors and line up a few that your spouse can go to in the event of your death. Since DIYs are likely most capable of vetting advisors (vs. having spouse or family member doing it) best to do it while you're still among the living. And I'd suggest lining up three advisors and prioritizing them. But yes, you'll have to do periodic checks to make sure that your chosen advisors are still around; haven't gotten into trouble; or to ensure they haven't pre-deceased you.

In the case of "Doug" that I mentioned in my article, he wasn't calling me so much for this purpose. His son is an investment banker. He's a prominent member of his industry and is extremely bright and a disciplined investor. So I suspect he was struggling a bit between wanting to keep control of his portfolio and engaging my services (because he liked what he saw/heard from me). The exchange I describe in the article happened in 2008 as part of a longer email exchange whereby I asked him for a favour (unrelated to investment matters) and he wanted me to speak with a friend of his who is 100% equities and was a bit concerned. (This friend eventually came to me asking to be a client.)

I favour the option of lining up some advisors/firms. I had an elderly couple who visited me because they were in a bank fee based account split between two balanced portfolios (McLean Budden & Seamark). It was 2007 and performance was lacklustre and the portfolio was a bit equity-heavy. There were a bunch of tiny equity positions (most were under $2,000 apiece in a $700k total portfolio).

As it was 2007, I was still in the business of giving pure advice, charging a flat fees. The couple had a son who was comfortable trading stocks online so we had the account transferred to a discount brokerage (I set them up with a branch I knew that would both cover their account closing fees but also fill out paperwork for them.)

Everything was perfect. I got them to be more conservative and reduced their fees by almost $11k annually. Then the guy from the discount brokerage office moved to the full service side. He then offered to administer the account for these folks, which as time went on these people kind of liked (because I didn't handle accounts at that time) and they found trading increasingly difficult. Then it took a turn. The broker, I later discovered, moved some of the Beutel Goodman bond fund I'd recommended for them into a Russell bond fund at twice the cost. And then when given a choice to follow me to HighView (which I offered several former DHA clients) they chose the broker. :shock:

While this isn't quite the same situation - i.e. estate planning for spouses - the point being that even if you set your spouse up to be a DIY with specific instructions, there's always a good risk that they connect with an advisor who quickly changes the plan you so carefully laid out. So, I think better to choose three advisors now so that you at least know what kind of advice your loved one will receive.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby newguy » 12 Mar 2012 15:22

Thanks, good advice. I still might feel funny interviewing advisers and telling them they're the backup plan if I die. :lol:

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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby gouthro » 12 Mar 2012 16:58

I second what Newguy says. This is good advice. Thanks for going to the trouble, Dan.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Pickles » 12 Mar 2012 17:09

newguy wrote: I still might feel funny interviewing advisers and telling them they're the backup plan if I die. :lol:

newguy


How you phrased this would be important. "You can be my wife's advisor over my dead body." might not be the best approach.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby ghariton » 12 Mar 2012 17:20

DanH's advice is very useful as usual. But I would add that I think it is important for your spouse to meet the advisers you're thinking of. Is there any personal chemistry? Or, much more important, is there any personal antipathy? I know that my wife trusts people (or not) mostly on her gut instinct. A recommendation from me wouldn't go very far, as trust is concerned.

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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Insomniac » 12 Mar 2012 19:14

Pickles wrote:How you phrased this would be important. "You can be my wife's advisor over my dead body." might not be the best approach.

:rofl:
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby DanH » 12 Mar 2012 19:25

ghariton wrote:DanH's advice is very useful as usual. But I would add that I think it is important for your spouse to meet the advisers you're thinking of. Is there any personal chemistry? Or, much more important, is there any personal antipathy? I know that my wife trusts people (or not) mostly on her gut instinct. A recommendation from me wouldn't go very far, as trust is concerned.

George


Excellent point and a very important part of the process that I forgot to mention.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby mike.bayer » 14 Mar 2012 13:39

DanH wrote:
ghariton wrote:DanH's advice is very useful as usual. But I would add that I think it is important for your spouse to meet the advisers you're thinking of. Is there any personal chemistry? Or, much more important, is there any personal antipathy? I know that my wife trusts people (or not) mostly on her gut instinct. A recommendation from me wouldn't go very far, as trust is concerned.

George


Excellent point and a very important part of the process that I forgot to mention.


That is very true.

I have found many people decide if they will do business with you within 30 to 60 seconds of meeting you. Clearly not enough time to make a rational or informed choice but nonetheless it seems to be how most people operate.

Behavioral Biases
http://www.dfaca.com/2009/12/behavioral-biases.html

If you are looking for someone to be your wife's advisor over your dead body - lol, I would be happy to throw my hat in the ring. I provide low cost Dimensional Fund Advisor and ETF solutions.
Last edited by mike.bayer on 15 Mar 2012 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Descartes » 15 Mar 2012 10:01

If you are looking for someone to be your wife's advisor over your dead body - lol, I would be happy to throw my hat in the ring.

Me too - with you out of the way it'll be easier to bilk help your family! :P

Seriously though, (and no offense to the adviser community but) wouldn't it be more appealing to a confirmed DIY-er to try to teach his/her spouse and children financial independence through some "investment plan" maintenance manual as suggested earlier than having them dependent on someone possessing knowledge, ethics, or opinions that may not match your own?

If not, timely old Rob Carrick tells you how to spot a crooked adviser.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby mike.bayer » 15 Mar 2012 10:49

Descartes wrote:
If you are looking for someone to be your wife's advisor over your dead body - lol, I would be happy to throw my hat in the ring.

Me too - with you out of the way it'll be easier to bilk help your family! :P

Seriously though, (and no offense to the adviser community but) wouldn't it be more appealing to a confirmed DIY-er to try to teach his/her spouse and children financial independence through some "investment plan" maintenance manual as suggested earlier than having them dependent on someone possessing knowledge, ethics, or opinions that may not match your own?

If not, timely old Rob Carrick tells you how to spot a crooked adviser.


Sure, here are a few things you will need to teach them.

1) An interest in investing and finances - if they don't enjoy it, they will do a lousy job
2) History - a working knowledge of financial history, from the South Sea Bubble to the 2008-present financial crisis
3) Math - specifically statistics and the laws of probability, Geometric versus arithmetic return, Standard deviation, Correlation
4) Investment theory - Modern portfolio theory and efficient market theory, Fama, French, Malkiel, Thaler, Bogle, Shiller, Cowles.
5) Psychology - at least a working understanding of all of the cognitive errors and biases (overconfidence, self attribution, hindsight, extrapolation, familiarity, mental accounting, regret avoidance, confirmation bias)
6) Emotional discipline - good luck with this one

In my humble opinion, your odds of teaching them all of these is somewhere between 1 in 100 to 1 in 10,000.
Last edited by mike.bayer on 15 Mar 2012 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby BRIAN5000 » 15 Mar 2012 10:57

Sure, here are a few things you will need to teach them.


Or ....leave everything/portfolio in a Testamentary Trust with a few simple instructions for a Couch Potato portfolio.

Another alternative is to leave enough so Gic's is all that is required, no stocks, no bonds, 5 year GIC ladder from one institution/GIC broker, one tax slip and just pay the tax.
Last edited by BRIAN5000 on 15 Mar 2012 11:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Bylo Selhi » 15 Mar 2012 11:19

Descartes wrote:wouldn't it be more appealing to a confirmed DIY-er to try to teach his/her spouse and children financial independence through some "investment plan" maintenance manual as suggested earlier

Good luck with that. While it's worth a try, I suspect that in the vast majority of cases it simply won't work.

Moreover, unless your spouse gets directly involved while you're alive (which they won't because that's how we got to this discussion in the first place) their first attempt at DIY will happen only when you're gone. Then not only won't your spouse have the benefit of your guidance and help, but you'll also have placed them in this situation at the very worst possible time—when they also have to deal with all the other emotional and practical issues that arise from your departure.

Arguably you're doing them a great favour by helping them find someone who can look after this in your absence. I agree that it will be a big challenge to find an advisor "possessing knowledge, ethics, [and] opinions that... match your own."
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Descartes » 15 Mar 2012 11:25

mike.bayer wrote:Sure, here are a few things you will need to teach them.

Your hyperbole erodes your argument significantly, in my humble opinion.

Here are a few concerns:
1. A confirmed DIY-er has already taught him/herself sufficiently despite the odds (otherwise one would not consider oneself 'confirmed')..so, it can be done.
2. You only appeal to the most arrogant confirmed DIY-er if you say that person is 1-10,000.
3. You are saying you, yourself, are one of those 1-10,000 (holy-cow!).
4. A maintenance manual requires only instructions to maintain (and it may only be a couch-potato portfolio as mentioned by Brian) not, for example, the emotional and historical acumen to avoid purchasing tulip bulbs at crazy prices.
5. Are you saying my wife and kids are stupid?! :)
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Shakespeare » 15 Mar 2012 11:28

Your hyperbole erodes your argument significantly, in my humble opinion.
Bill Bernstein has made a similar point.
The Probability of Success
“Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one. Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.” -- R.A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby CathyF » 15 Mar 2012 11:51

Descartes wrote:
mike.bayer wrote:Sure, here are a few things you will need to teach them.

Your hyperbole erodes your argument significantly, in my humble opinion.

Here are a few concerns:
1. A confirmed DIY-er has already taught him/herself sufficiently despite the odds (otherwise one would not consider oneself 'confirmed')..so, it can be done.
2. You only appeal to the most arrogant confirmed DIY-er if you say that person is 1-10,000.
3. You are saying you, yourself, are one of those 1-10,000 (holy-cow!).
4. A maintenance manual requires only instructions to maintain (and it may only be a couch-potato portfolio as mentioned by Brian) not, for example, the emotional and historical acumen to avoid purchasing tulip bulbs at crazy prices.
5. Are you saying my wife and kids are stupid?! :)


:thumbsup:

(I won't actually write anything, lest I be accused of offending advisors again. But thank you for writing my thoughts.)
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Descartes » 15 Mar 2012 11:53

Shakespeare wrote:
Your hyperbole erodes your argument significantly, in my humble opinion.
Bill Bernstein has made a similar point.
The Probability of Success

Mr. Bernstein is commenting on the general case (and even then his [optimistic] odds are 1 in 100 not 10,000).

We are talking about a special case: maintaining (not inventing) a working, successful DIY portfolio where:
- instruction is provided by someone with significant stake in having that instruction succeed
- the students have proof of the success and (hopefully) have trust and faith in the teacher
- at least some of the students have the same superior genetic make-up as you :)
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby newguy » 15 Mar 2012 12:05

Descartes wrote:5. Are you saying my wife and kids are stupid?! :)

Kids are my only hope. I forget what we were watching but my gf asked me yesterday if the dragons all died out with the dinosaurs. And she's still not sure how they filmed Jurassic Park if they're all dead.

She can follow instructions for a couch potato portfolio and won't have the problem of worrying about whether the balance goes up or down. The problem is all her friends say things like "You're stupid if you don't buy a house", "You should buy CSBs from work - I saved $1k", "My insurance salesman wants to talk to you", "I know a lady who will come to your house and do your RESP", "Are you going to the FTQ funds meeting?". These are all real comments from the last couple years and she wants to do all of them until I explain how they work. She needs someone she can call for a reality check.

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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby Bylo Selhi » 15 Mar 2012 12:09

Descartes wrote:We are talking about a special case: maintaining (not inventing) a working, successful DIY portfolio where:

Good luck with that, especially after a market crash erases 25% or more of the value of your spouse's portfolio. I bet that when such a crash happens to you it takes a lot of self-discipline to not panic, not sell everything, etc. and ride the storm. Do you seriously think that someone who's not particularly interested in investing, who's never been through something like this before, and who now has to make do with that portfolio since there may no longer be regular job income, etc. is going to have the same intestinal fortitude that you did?
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby mike.bayer » 15 Mar 2012 12:32

BRIAN5000 wrote:
Sure, here are a few things you will need to teach them.


Or ....leave everything/portfolio in a Testamentary Trust with a few simple instructions for a Couch Potato portfolio.

Another alternative is to leave enough so Gic's is all that is required, no stocks, no bonds, 5 year GIC ladder from one institution/GIC broker, one tax slip and just pay the tax.


If you have a minimum of $750,000 you can pay a corporate executor between 2% and 5% to administer the estate and establish the trust. Then a 0.5% or $5000 min annual fee to administer the trust. Plus whatever the advisor charges to manage the portfolio.

GIC's will likely have a negative real return in the current rate environment.
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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby ghariton » 15 Mar 2012 12:37

Spousal DIY.

Back in the 1980s, when we were just starting out investing in mutual funds (Royal Trust), I told my wife to invest her year's contribution in Royal Trust Canadian equity fund. (That was part of the asset allocation plan.) She came home with her money in Royal Trust's synthetic American equities fund -- the one that was created via options so that it could count as Canadian content -- and charged a correspondingly higher MER.

Me: Why did you buy that, and not the fund we had agreed upon?

Wife: Well, this really nice lady at Royal Trust told me what a great investment this is, and so I decided to put my money there instead.

Me: Well, I don't think that fits in with our plans. We already have enough American equity. Could you go back and change that?

Wife: I suppose. What a pain...

Two days later.

Me: So did you go and change that mutual fund?

Wife: Yes, I did, just like we said.

Me: And did you get a Canadian equity fund?

Wife: No. That nice lady said it was a bad idea. She said this thingamajig fund would be much better. (What she had was an Asian equity fund, again produced synthetically with options so that it would count as Canadian content.)

Me: Don't you ever listen? I asked you to put your money into Canadian equities.

Wife: Well, if you're going to be like that, I'm not talking to you any more.

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Re: High Net Worth? Get Thee To An Advisor!

Postby mike.bayer » 15 Mar 2012 13:13

ghariton wrote:Spousal DIY.

Back in the 1980s, when we were just starting out investing in mutual funds (Royal Trust), I told my wife to invest her year's contribution in Royal Trust Canadian equity fund. (That was part of the asset allocation plan.) She came home with her money in Royal Trust's synthetic American equities fund -- the one that was created via options so that it could count as Canadian content -- and charged a correspondingly higher MER.

Me: Why did you buy that, and not the fund we had agreed upon?

Wife: Well, this really nice lady at Royal Trust told me what a great investment this is, and so I decided to put my money there instead.

Me: Well, I don't think that fits in with our plans. We already have enough American equity. Could you go back and change that?

Wife: I suppose. What a pain...

Two days later.

Me: So did you go and change that mutual fund?

Wife: Yes, I did, just like we said.

Me: And did you get a Canadian equity fund?

Wife: No. That nice lady said it was a bad idea. She said this thingamajig fund would be much better. (What she had was an Asian equity fund, again produced synthetically with options so that it would count as Canadian content.)

Me: Don't you ever listen? I asked you to put your money into Canadian equities.

Wife: Well, if you're going to be like that, I'm not talking to you any more.

George


;) lol - you made my day - that and the dragons dying out with the dinosaurs
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