Derek Foster

Asset allocation, risk, diversification and rebalancing. Pros/cons of hiring a financial advisor. Seeking advice on your portfolio?
OnlyMyOpinion
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by OnlyMyOpinion » 07 Oct 2017 14:09

Taggart wrote:
07 Oct 2017 10:27
... Thanks. I didn't know TDDI carried news items from the G&M. Got all excited there for a moment realizing I could get a free read on Norman Rothery's "A value strategy seeking the most succulent returns". Unfortunately, when I clicked on it all I got was a list of stocks.
Do you have a library card from your local library, and have you ever logged onto your library's website?
Ours allows us to access an 'elibrary' which allows access to PressReader, which accesses many, many newspapers and mags, including past and current G&M.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by thedude99 » 07 Oct 2017 14:39

I know so many people abusing the child tax thing along with any and all tax credits by any means necessary. Drug dealers claiming 20K of income with 5 kids raking it in, parents with not two but three kids labelled "disabled" by a friendly doctor (they have very slight autism) and one former co-worker who could not hack corporate life anymore going on LTD for the rest of his life. Many people who would otherwise work and contribute are saying what's the point when with a couple kids on an after tax basis you basically have a minimum wage salary doing absolutely nothing.

Regarding the paywall...if you have a library card you can access any and all article online via PressReader.
Last edited by thedude99 on 07 Oct 2017 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

longinvest
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 07 Oct 2017 14:48

NormR wrote:
07 Oct 2017 13:52
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 09:14
Someone frugal enough could never work a single day in his life, living on welfare until 65, then on GIS/OAS. Retire at age 18! How about that?
I know people on "disability". Your way might be paid for but it's a horrible lifestyle that leads to hopelessness.
"My way"? Not at all. I was being sarcastic!

There doesn't seem to be much difference between the approach of the "extremely early retirement" advocates and the "never work" option; both approaches are depressing. Why not aspire reap the benefits of contributing to society through work during one's able days? Why not aspire to more comfort, more freedom, and others things that more money brings? Who knows; maybe one would also get to enjoy attacking interesting challenges, sometimes as part of a team.

I'm not talking about living above one's means, or about not to aspiring to retire before 65. I'm just saying that the "retire in one's 30s or 40s" blogs/sites/books are mostly attractive to young workers unsatisfied with their current job. I think that it would be more beneficial for such young workers to address their fundamental problem of job insatisfaction, instead of condemning themselves to a life of poverty by retiring way too early.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Taggart » 07 Oct 2017 15:14

OnlyMyOpinion wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:09
Taggart wrote:
07 Oct 2017 10:27
... Thanks. I didn't know TDDI carried news items from the G&M. Got all excited there for a moment realizing I could get a free read on Norman Rothery's "A value strategy seeking the most succulent returns". Unfortunately, when I clicked on it all I got was a list of stocks.
Do you have a library card from your local library, and have you ever logged onto your library's website?
Ours allows us to access an 'elibrary' which allows access to PressReader, which accesses many, many newspapers and mags, including past and current G&M.
Yes, I use the library all the time mainly for books and movie dvd's. I'll occasionally scan the e-catalogue maybe a couple of times a year for things like Consumer Reports. Thanks for reminding me to perhaps look at it more closely.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Taggart » 07 Oct 2017 15:18

NormR wrote:
07 Oct 2017 13:49
Taggart wrote:
07 Oct 2017 10:27
Thanks. I didn't know TDDI carried news items from the G&M. Got all excited there for a moment realizing I could get a free read on Norman Rothery's "A value strategy seeking the most succulent returns". Unfortunately, when I clicked on it all I got was a list of stocks.
The TLDR: Picking low multiple stocks (book value, earnings, cash flow, sales) from the S&P/TSX Composite worked over the last 15 years. Book value provided marginal gains vs the market while the others fared much better. Low-P/CF fared the best.
Thanks Norm. Good to get a brief synopsis as to what the article was all about.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 07 Oct 2017 15:46

longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:48
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the approach of the "extremely early retirement" advocates and the "never work" option; ...
Except the first is generally earned through personal sacrifice and hard work and the second is a form of stealing funded by the tax dollars of people who actually work... :?
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 07 Oct 2017 16:05

Koogie wrote:
07 Oct 2017 15:46
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:48
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the approach of the "extremely early retirement" advocates and the "never work" option; ...
Except the first is generally earned through personal sacrifice and hard work and the second is a form of stealing funded by the tax dollars of people who actually work... :?
There's that, effectively. But, both are depressing; nothing I would aspire to.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 07 Oct 2017 16:32

longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 16:05
There's that, effectively. But, both are depressing; nothing I would aspire to.
To each their own but I would find it equally depressing to be defined by work and unable to contemplate a life outside its environs.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Taggart » 07 Oct 2017 18:12

The people I've personally met or read about on the internet who have retired early (mid 30's to early 40's) from full time work, seem to be still doing something whether it's part time, contract or volunteer work. Used to be back in the mid-80's a half million USD and a financial tail wind would see you through. Now, that figures gone up to at least a $million.

I have a feeling trying that with your assets in a mix of bonds and in the Canadian or U.S. stock markets in the early 1960's through to the early 80's would not have worked out too well though.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 07 Oct 2017 18:33

Koogie wrote:
07 Oct 2017 16:32
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 16:05
There's that, effectively. But, both are depressing; nothing I would aspire to.
To each their own but I would find it equally depressing to be defined by work and unable to contemplate a life outside its environs.
What's so negative about work? My grandparents were defined by their work, and quite proud of it.

Work can take many forms. It doesn't have to be something one hates and wants to leave as early as possible. On the contrary! In our rich and awesome country one can easily learn a trade or go to university to acquire specialized knowledge and skills. One can also sidestep studying and simply start his own business. Or, or, or.

Our public schools are free and of high quality. Richer parents can also send their children to private schools. Our universities (in Quebec at least) are relatively inexpensive and students have access to loans and bursaries.

Lots of opportunities exist for anybody who wants to do something of enough value for others who'll be happy to pay him to do it. One just has to find something in the intersection of one's likes and the needs or wants of others.

I'm so glad when my prefered actors appear in new movies, even when if they could have retired years ago. I don't want them to stop, and I'm sure they love what they do!
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by JaydoubleU » 08 Oct 2017 09:53

What's so negative about work? My grandparents were defined by their work, and quite proud of it.

Work can take many forms. It doesn't have to be something one hates and wants to leave as early as possible. On the contrary! In our rich and awesome country one can easily learn a trade or go to university to acquire specialized knowledge and skills. One can also sidestep studying and simply start his own business. Or, or, or.
True. My farmer-grandfather used to say, "you're godammned lucky to be able to pay taxes now shut up and pay them." He had deep respect for work and for this country, and would have despised the likes of Derek Foster, milking the system and contributing nothing to it. There is no honor or pride in what DF does.

I retired in March this year and moved back to Canada. After a few months of diddling around I felt somewhat bored and "displaced." Too young to collect a pension, I wasn't sure how to define myself: former professor?; self-employed?, or simply unemployed. The latter had a ring to it that I didn't like. So last month I started a new job, and it is very physically demanding. I am much older than my co-workers who marvel at the old-timer working like a dog for relatively low pay. But I love the outdoors and I enjoy hard work. No desire to "Stop Work (here's how you can))" and live off the system.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 08 Oct 2017 10:14

longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 18:33
What's so negative about work? My grandparents were defined by their work, and quite proud of it.
Work can take many forms. It doesn't have to be something one hates and wants to leave as early as possible. On the contrary! In our rich and awesome country one can easily learn a trade or go to university to acquire specialized knowledge and skills. One can also sidestep studying and simply start his own business. Or, or, or.
Our public schools are free and of high quality. Richer parents can also send their children to private schools. Our universities (in Quebec at least) are relatively inexpensive and students have access to loans and bursaries.
Lots of opportunities exist for anybody who wants to do something of enough value for others who'll be happy to pay him to do it. One just has to find something in the intersection of one's likes and the needs or wants of others.
I'm so glad when my prefered actors appear in new movies, even when if they could have retired years ago. I don't want them to stop, and I'm sure they love what they do!
There is nothing inherently negative about work. However, it is not the only "moral" choice about what one can do with ones time (provided one can support oneself without it). A lot of the members of this board retired before the traditional age of 65. Should they have kept working for "pride" and because work is the only thing that can "define" their lives ?

As to not "contributing" to society any longer. That is both silly and a fallacy. Firstly, I am not arrogant or narcissistic enough to believe that my "contributions" matter significantly on an economic or social scale nor are they irreplaceable. Secondly, retirees do not exist in a vacuum. They consume goods and services, pay taxes, etc.. So, they are still contributing economically. Some also continue to contribute socially (volunteering, etc.)

A tombstone reading "I wish I had spent more time in the office" may have become a joke meme but at it's core is a truth about living life for something other than work.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 11:00

Koogie wrote:
08 Oct 2017 10:14
A lot of the members of this board retired before the traditional age of 65. Should they have kept working for "pride" and because work is the only thing that can "define" their lives ?
I have expressed nothing against that. What I said is that retiring "extremely early" to end up under the line of poverty all life long is nothing to aspire to, and it's quite frankly depressing.

Let me put some numbers behind my claims.

I'll build a realistic scenario using the spreadsheet presented in The After-Tax Spending Plan. As it is currently limited to QC calculations, I'll pick an average young person living in Montreal, for which Statistics canada provides the average employment income - Montreal region.

All calculations will be in 2017 dollars.

So, this person is lucky enough to leave his parent's house at age 25 with no debt whatsoever (net worth $0) and an annual salary $39,000 from age 25 to age 35.

Based on the spreadsheet, this person can't even save enough money to fill the gap in QPP and OAS payments from age 35 to age 70. So, let's pick, instead, the earliest age at which he'll accumulate enough money to fill the gap in CPP and OAS from retirement to age 70. Through trial and error, we discover that it's age 42. But, this would require our young worker to have a 47% savings rate, letting him try to survive on $1,060 per month:
spendingplan-25-42.png
It's equivalent to live on a gross annual income of less than $15,000. Can we agree that this is nothing to aspire to?

Now, is it possible to retire super early with dignity, let say at age 35 starting from $0 (e.g. without a windfall)? Yes, but here's the type of scenario this requires:
spendingplan-20-35.png
Our young worker has to find employment with a $130,000 salary from age 20 to age 35. He'll have to save and invest 48% of his gross salary. At age 35, he can retire on an annual gross income of $40,000.

It's a nice objective, but it's an unlikely scenario for most people of age 20 living in Montreal.

Extreme early retirement is a pipe dream. The only way to make it work for young people with an average salary is to live way below the poverty line during work years and probably live on welfare during their so-called retirement.

As it happens, Derek Foster seems to be quite dependent on welfare (Canada child benefit)... :?
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 08 Oct 2017 11:29

longinvest wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:00
I have expressed nothing against that. What I said is that retiring "extremely early" to end up under the line of poverty all life long is nothing to aspire to, and it's quite frankly depressing.
You said nothing of the sort or, if that is what you meant, it was not expressed that way. You equated early retirement with never working. Full stop, with no qualifiers.

Now your argument is that "average" people can't retire early ? That is something else entirely. No, they probably can't without superhuman willpower. But then again, "average" people don't DIY invest either. Yet we can see that is possible for outliers like the members of this board.

So, early retirees are probably outliers. Yes, of course they are but it doesn't mean they don't exist or shouldn't exist.
longinvest wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:00
Extreme early retirement is a pipe dream. The only way to make it work for young people with an average salary is to live way below the poverty line during work years and probably live on welfare during their so-called retirement.
As it happens, Derek Foster seems to be quite dependent on welfare... :wink:
Extreme early retirement is not a "pipe dream" Just unlikely. I myself was financially ready at about the age of 40. Whether or not that qualifies as early is certainly debatable. I didn't have a "windfall" either. Just hard work and a fortunate economic cycle.

And yes, Derek Foster is despicable. Or at least a charlatan. IF his situation has been honestly and faithfully reported on.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 11:37

Koogie wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:29
longinvest wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:00
I have expressed nothing against that. What I said is that retiring "extremely early" to end up under the line of poverty all life long is nothing to aspire to, and it's quite frankly depressing.
You said nothing of the sort or, if that is what you meant, it was not expressed that way. You equated early retirement with never working. Full stop, with no qualifiers.
Let me quote what I actually wrote:
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:48
I'm not talking about living above one's means, or about not to aspiring to retire before 65. I'm just saying that the "retire in one's 30s or 40s" blogs/sites/books are mostly attractive to young workers unsatisfied with their current job. I think that it would be more beneficial for such young workers to address their fundamental problem of job insatisfaction, instead of condemning themselves to a life of poverty by retiring way too early.
I think that I was pretty explicit about having nothing against retiring before 65 (with dignity, of course).
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 08 Oct 2017 12:06

longinvest wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:37
Let me quote what I actually wrote:
longinvest wrote:
08 Oct 2017 11:37
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the approach of the "extremely early retirement" advocates and the "never work" option; both approaches are depressing. Why not aspire reap the benefits of contributing to society through work during one's able days? Why not aspire to more comfort, more freedom, and others things that more money brings? Who knows; maybe one would also get to enjoy attacking interesting challenges, sometimes as part of a team.
And it is still perfectly possible to retire early without "living in poverty" or being unfulfilled and needing work to fill ones time.
Spend some time at http://www.early-retirement.org/forums
Challenge your assumptions.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 12:18

Koogie,

I think that it's unfair to take pieces of what I wrote out of their context to misrepresent my intentions.

I've been quite explicit that I'm fine with early retirement, when it's done with dignity. I've even provided an example of a dignified retirement at age 35 for a young worker with a $130K salary from age 20 to 35.

Regards,

longinvest
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by Koogie » 08 Oct 2017 12:31

I'm sorry but I quoted the paragraph you wrote in full, not pieces of it.

If it doesn't state what you intended so be it but that is what you wrote and that is all others have to judge your intent by. If you say it is misrepresentative then that is the end of it. I certainly am not able to cast aspersions because of a lack of clarity. My mutterings sometimes don't even make sense to me in retrospect because they are so poorly articulated.. :wink:

To get back to the topic, Mr. Foster

While there will always be charlatans, I think situations like his cause special harm. Public education in financial matters is so poor that when someone like him writes these books espousing a "secret formula" for success to the masses, which subsequently gets exposed as bunkum, it leads the average citizen to go: "see, I knew all that financial stuff was rigged, phony and crooked"

Further increasing their distrust of the banks, of the stock markets and of financial planning in general. We will all pay the price for that further down the line when we have to support those who failed to plan. The cynic in me says we may be entering the age of peak grasshopper.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 12:44

Koogie wrote:
08 Oct 2017 12:31
I'm sorry but I quoted the paragraph you wrote in full, not pieces of it.
But, the next paragraph which clarified my intentions was left out.

Paragraphs can't all be self-contained texts; that would require 300-lines paragraphs. Context is more than a single paragraph. Actually, context often spans across multiple posts within a single discussion thread. In this particular threads, my posts were written in the context of a multi-post discussion.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 13:09

Koogie wrote:
08 Oct 2017 12:31
While there will always be charlatans, I think situations like his cause special harm. Public education in financial matters is so poor that when someone like him writes these books espousing a "secret formula" for success to the masses, which subsequently gets exposed as bunkum, it leads the average citizen to go: "see, I knew all that financial stuff was rigged, phony and crooked"
So, it's not sufficient to debunk the charlatans; people have to be educated, too. Unfortunately, whenever governments or schools think about financial education, they consult financial industry "specialists" about it, the same people who benefit from low financial education*...

I don't expect to hear about DYI low-cost cap-weighted indexing being taught in schools anytime soon. :?

Added:

* Not all of them, obviously! There are good financial advisors and specialists, out there, who act in the best interest of their investing clients. But, they seem in small number relative to salespeople who put their own interest first, putting their clients money into high-fee mutual funds or complex insurance products.
Last edited by longinvest on 08 Oct 2017 14:17, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by NormR » 08 Oct 2017 13:39

longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:48
NormR wrote:
07 Oct 2017 13:52
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 09:14
Someone frugal enough could never work a single day in his life, living on welfare until 65, then on GIS/OAS. Retire at age 18! How about that?
I know people on "disability". Your way might be paid for but it's a horrible lifestyle that leads to hopelessness.
"My way"? Not at all. I was being sarcastic!
My comment wasn't meant to be a criticism. Just an observation at how horrible being entirely dependent on the state is in practice.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by longinvest » 08 Oct 2017 13:48

NormR wrote:
08 Oct 2017 13:39
longinvest wrote:
07 Oct 2017 14:48
NormR wrote:
07 Oct 2017 13:52


I know people on "disability". Your way might be paid for but it's a horrible lifestyle that leads to hopelessness.
"My way"? Not at all. I was being sarcastic!
My comment wasn't meant to be a criticism. Just an observation at how horrible being entirely dependent on the state is in practice.
Thanks for the clarification. I fully agree with you.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by JaydoubleU » 08 Oct 2017 15:04

As to not "contributing" to society any longer. That is both silly and a fallacy. Firstly, I am not arrogant or narcissistic enough to believe that my "contributions" matter significantly on an economic or social scale nor are they irreplaceable. Secondly, retirees do not exist in a vacuum. They consume goods and services, pay taxes, etc.. So, they are still contributing economically. Some also continue to contribute socially (volunteering, etc.
I am silly, arrogant and narcissistic for thinking my small contribution matters?! Hmm. It is the small contributions of millions of us who pay Derek Foster's child benefits that I resent, but I am happy to pay into a pension plan that supports people who themselves contributed all their lives or to support those who are unable to work. I have no issue with pensioners or with people who retired early to follow other pursuits. I take issue with a young able person who lives off the contributions of others and is so arrogant as to boast about it in his books.

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Re: Derek Foster

Post by AltaRed » 08 Oct 2017 15:10

:thumbsup: Well said.
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Re: Derek Foster

Post by NormR » 08 Oct 2017 15:38

JaydoubleU wrote:
08 Oct 2017 15:04
I am silly, arrogant and narcissistic for thinking my small contribution matters?! Hmm. It is the small contributions of millions of us who pay Derek Foster's child benefits that I resent, but I am happy to pay into a pension plan that supports people who themselves contributed all their lives or to support those who are unable to work. I have no issue with pensioners or with people who retired early to follow other pursuits. I take issue with a young able person who lives off the contributions of others and is so arrogant as to boast about it in his books.
Don't disagree with the sentiment.

But fairness can be in the eye of the beholder ...
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